fred8033

Motion 3161 ... https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/202c0596-1e8e-464c-989b-4c661794580c_3161.pdf So ... For those saying "their" lawyer is doing this from the good of their heart? Mar 2020: 32 professionals * 175 hours * 1000 = $5.6 million. I'm sure some are less than full time. I'm sure some are more than full time. I'm sure some are way about $1000. And some are just trying to put bread on their families table at $350 an hour. The below table itself represents probably $50+ million in fees. Probably far more. There is only one set of individuals that will be well compensated in this suit.

Exactly. Playing both sides of an argument only creates a mess and does not help. I learned a long time ago that at some point you need to find a path thru the mess. But playing two contradicting sides is not viable.

#1 legally separate ... That then is TCC treating LCs as legally separate ... OR ... TCC is extracting value from a BSA during bankruptcy and running amok the priority of other debtors and the judge overseeing the case. So are LCs separate legally such that TCC can extract funds directly? Or if liable for BSA national, then the funds are subject to bankruptcy distribution and TCC needs to wait for the bankruptcy proceedings. #2 revoking charter ... Not clear cut at all. The by-laws include the words of "constructive trust" and for the purposes of scouting. And, address the case where a (business partner) council is not doing it's job or a council that is not viable. Councils that are financially healthy and doing a good job can argue that the bylaws do not address this case where BSA goes out of business but the councils can still execute on the purposes of scouting as many councils will be able to do. ... This seems to fall into case law on business partnerships or business franchise rights. ... I'm not sure, but I am sure that it's just not that clear cut at all.

Per TCC talking directly with LCs as evidence of being legally separate But then the reality of the efforts between the LCs and TCC recently show the opposite. I've been reading comments about last TCC mtg and other TCC activities. About last meeting, attendance was huge and suggested that hat people should ask their scout exec or council president attended. Further, the TCC inviting (the invite itself) shows a direct communication approach. Another comment in this thread said that TCC was open to direct communication with any LC.

We've debated till our faces are blue about BSA being at fault for past abuses. Sadly, we're of different opinion here too. I can't blame BSA causing further harm by legally pursing bankruptcy. Society is foolish to think that revisiting these sins of the past ever heals the present. Even more foolish to think that any financial compensation corrects for damages. Blame the legislatures who extended liability from decades ago. Blame advocates who think that's a good idea to muck rake the past. Blame lawyers chasing ambulances. Blame empty promises saying you will get significantly compensated. Sadly, BSA is just taking the best legal course in a very ugly situation. Sadly, some will get extremely rich based on this, but it won't be the victims. Even then, there are so many lawyers now involved I fear the individual lawyer award for most lawyers will only be several million. A few head partners and equity owners will earn tens of millions or more. The real profit will be in showing the highest legal expenses (after markup) and getting directly paid those expenses separate than a share of the summary award. I remember the months of TV infomercials about abuse. Every time I saw on run, I was thinking about the airtime in the markets. Those infomercials had to cost tens of millions to run. ( many markets, many channels, etc) ... Someone had to finance these. To get financing, they had to be darn sure there would be a big pay day. ... When that happens, you can be darn sure someone has a financial motivation. It's not oout of the good of their heart. I have a friend that always says to watch out for anything free because free will surely cost you a lot. I'd say the same is true here. Watch out for anyone that says you will be significantly compensated. People don't do that unless they are going to get rich doing it.

Dumb question ... By the TCC inviting the LCs directly and beginning direct discussions with LCs, isn't that TCC effectively acknowledging the LCs as separate entities ? ... incorporated separately ... paying taxes separately ... owning property separately ... now beginning to negotiate with TCC separately? Further, doesn't it create evidence that BSA doesn't control the council leadership? (presidents, scout execs, etc?) ... council leaders negotiating directly with TCC ... choosing to opt in or opt out of a larger settlement ... That lack of control is further evidence that councils are separate legal entities. TCC direct negotiations with councils subverts the claim that councils are liable in a BSA national bankruptcy. Sure councils can be individual liable and sued individually, but I don't see how TCC talking to councils directly helps in a larger settlement of the BSA national bankruptcy.

Scouting is not a bargain. Worth the value when done right, but often over promising, under delivering and at cost. I'm betting there were multiple years where we spent $500 per month on average. Four summer camps + being a leader and usually at the camps + plus often an extra week of summer camp for multiple kids + one high adventure base per kid + monthly camp outs + activities + extra costs + leader costs + gas + equipment. It really adds up. My sons and I definitely benefited from scouting, but it was not a bargain. We could have done much more as a family (money and time). But then again, you do need to spend your time somewhere and Iike the outdoor and adventure aspect.

The following 2016 thesis submittal is really interesting. Interesting comments based on (starting page 28) Theissen polygon analysis of scouting membership data. Interesting figures start on page 28+. https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitstream/handle/1808/24173/Hubbard_ku_0099M_15024_DATA_1.pdf?sequence=1 Obviously a pro-scouter. One sentence near the end is interesting and timely. "Scouting is not for everybody but for those who are active, the chief lessons are not discrimination, blind patriotism, or xenophobia; takeaways are self-reliance, critical thinking, the value of community, hard work, and determination."

I wish that was the same for all the programs. I know materials have been moving that direction, but I'll be glad to see more and more move that direction.

Less forth coming? Every CO and school I've known has had issues. Few get front page coverage. Few get public announcements to solicit other victims or find the larger scope. The issues I've learned about from long ago are dead on same as BSA. Hesitation to accuse someone with good standing. People shuffled. Often police not involved. This is more about having a tracking record system where others obscured their records, intentionally or not intentionally ... or just did not track at all.

Several topics here. CO shopping. BSA subverting CO ownership. CO liability . My comment was about CO liability ... Their liability seems similar to BSA. Every CO every year signed paperwork documenting their responsibility such as selecting and vouching for leaders. The CO effectively signed every adult leadership application thru their CO or the CO's designate. ... If BSA is being held liable for what happened years ago when times were different, COs seem to be in the same basis. ... COs (pastors, youth ministers, etc) have always known that these things happen. Heck, my wife and I come from different faiths and she told me the stories of youth enamored with the young pastors and the trouble that happened sometimes. It was completely alien to me as I am Catholic and we never had youth pastors, etc.

I agree ... if they accept members of other faiths and churches, they need to be open to members exercising their faith. At the same time, the CO absolutely has the right to reserve the membership to youth and leaders from their own CO. Then by doing so, it can be a religious extension of the church. But if they accept members from outside their CO, then they need to be sensitive to other faiths and values.

Celebrate that the bear scout got to have a good experience. Hopefully it creates excitement to continue in scouting. Minimize the negative rules. It burns bridges and destroys future friendships. ... I'd ask this ... What is your concern that you are looking for a rule? I'm one that always leans toward following the rules. But rules are usually there for a reason. Avoid harm. Be safe. etc. ... So, is there a concern? Other cubs will want to go? Scout will get experiences out of sequence? Forget about the pack?

Why would they not share liability? They directly know (or should know) the people face-to-face and have people on-premise. They directly sign a statement they are vouching for the people involved. My view is the current situation is rather unfair to BSA. So, I only am less sympathetic to COs because of how unfair things are to BSA. I know multiple COs where youth pastors and volunteer leaders have gotten into trouble. ... So, if the argument extends to BSA ... it should extend to the COs too. Personally, reaching back decades on this stuff before the nation understood abuse and legal liabilities evolved is ridiculous. ... but that's a different discussion thread. Best left in that thread..

Great topic ! We've discussed this a bit and we're looking to switch to the new approach of a council chartered unit by a "group of citizens". At the same time, we're hoping our current CO still lets us use their space on a priority basis. I really don't think the CO sees a difference as they've never actively overseen the troop. It's more a liability issue. At the same time, your criteria is a good starting point. Much of the criteria is similar to choosing a scoutmaster. .... "Does he have a truck that can pull the troop trailer? Yes. Great. Then he's the scoutmaster."

Ok. I'll take birds, pontoons, etc. My personal NO is excess mice. They will always exist, but the tiny little bears do damage, get in tents and spread disease. Our troop once camped in and around a historic cabin ... read as old, creaky, broken down etc ... we could not sleep well because all night mouse traps would snap. The next day the victims were disposed and the traps reset. ... The place was really cool and very special ... and we chose not to return.

It happens.

I love falling asleep and waking up to those sounds. It's the best part of camping.

We should all write such letters. I have a few powerful stories that could bring you to tears ... some tears of how moving ... show tears from how funny. All good.

That's a good representation of a good scout leader. Be there for the scout, but get out of their hair unless it's a safety issue or the scouts need to be coached on how to treat others.

Cameras everywhere ... that's NCIS syndrome ... It varies place by place. usually targets property security. ... it's rarely about protecting people ... I live right next to a huge sports center. Two blocks away. It's a hybrid of school / local sports center. 20+ baseball diamonds. 20+ soccer fields. etc. ... I've walked it many times. It has some security cameras, but no live web cams. All cameras protecting the property. There is nothing specific to fields to track which adults are being creepy. I'm betting most of the time no-one is watching the cameras. I'm betting a week or a month later the video is gone. School security ... Our local school is secured during school hours, but the school is wide open during outside hours (extracurricular). I'm betting that's very common. But I agree ... times have changed. My sports teams traveled only by bus and locally. Our ski day trips had kids sneaking off to the chalet bar. ... My academic teams did travel overnight several times a year. When those teams traveled, the coach went and the bus driver served as the chaperone. They ate with us and stayed in the same hotel, but that was it.

Perhaps baseball has changed over the years. Security cameras ... I've never seen surveillance cameras as standard fair on the fields. Maybe when covering a large area like 5+ baseball fields, but never focused useful cameras. Out of public view ... 90% is on the field, but groups I was part of (35+ years ago) did regularly have pizza meetings, gatherings at houses, stopping by the coaches house, etc. .. Heck, it was always fun to bike to the coaches house to visit. Away overnight ... Sports have "traveling leagues". Many are overnights. Many are just day trips that take an hour+ to drive. Even non-traveling leagues can still have regular trips. Thinking sports is so different is not really true. Yes BSA has more opportunities, but sports have other risk modes ... such as large locker rooms with no adult restrictions ... yet 17,000 assaults over four years. You might be comparing Little League which is more like Cub Scouts with parents and lots of public view. Where as middle school and high school sports are more like Scouts USA. At that age, there are significant risks introduced in sports similar to being introduced in scouts.

Mock the idea if you want. IIHS and NTSM focus on failure analysis and recommend improvements. In engineering, we often model problem patterns with FMEAs. The key point is too often failures are repeated over and over again across time and across organizations. We should be step wise learning from such failures to improve youth protection. Over time, this could only help protect children. BSA has what I'd often call an extremely good starting basis for youth protection in the G2SS. Specific points could be added, removed and modified, but it's a good starting point. Yes there are other failure modes such as oversight, enforement, etc. That's where the analysis could really be beneficial. The key is I don't see such standards and planned protection in other organizations. Establishing such analysis and recommendations for youth servicing organizations seems like a very basic idea.

I actually think it's a very good idea. We have IIHS for automobiles. We have NTSB for air travel. It's not about corporations running our lives. It's about outside, independent analysis of failures that then produce recommendations. Call it the NYSB, national youth safety board. As people want to fly, people also want their kids to be active, experiencing life. As people can't monitor airlines for safety, people can't monitor all the organizations their kids help their kids. An independent feedback loop of how soceity protects kids is a very important idea.

It's a great idea. Removes the this group vs that group challenge.