fred8033

Ok. So it would be liquidated by some organization or by BSA with agreement ... then the bankruptcy would portion out value across the creditors. BSA handing over the summit to TCC is more rhetoric than process.

Naive question ... but you keep saying just turn the thing over to TCC ... BSA can't do that right ? There are multiple creditors in line? COs. LCs. Girl Scouts. Other victim representatives. Or are you saying TCC gets to take title and sell ... then hand over money to others creditors based on their plan? I ask as one of the key things in business is controlling who has the dollars. Who ever has the dollars in their bank account has a lot of control? During graduate studies I remember dealing with a business man who was talking about a payment his company got accidentally (not me). The guy said he's give them back the money as it was theirs, but he was going to wait and see if they asked three times. He was betting they'd give up after two. ... They gave up and his small company (insurance firm) was enriched by $10,000+. It creeped me out, but I've seen that before. I was wondering if it is a figure of speech or if TCC really would get a property title handed over. Or if there is another group that would get the property title and sell on behalf of the creditors.

I'd find it hard to believe it's a clear split.

What is the valuation split? Sea Base and Northern Tier are great, but their properties are pretty small and buildings target youth camper programs. Anyone buying them would need to do a major reconstruction; effectively a tear down and re-build. And some may be blocked from re-use due to restrictions (too near to lake, bordering BWCA, etc) ... I'd guess NT and SB are worth land value minus tear down / cleanup costs. So being under $60M for those two is easily clear. I really expected Philmont to be worth more, but is it protected by national park or is it barren land not in demand except as wilderness use. Or is Philmont reduced by other debt? ... I tend to remember something about that.

Yeah, that's legal advice. You can't split the two.

If BSA's argument is right that LCs (and COs) are separate legal entities, they can't drop protection. It's not in their authority. If BSA's argument is not right, they they are not protected. It's not in BSA's control to surrender.

LCs and their representatives will weigh in heavy on that. That one question could take far longer to resolve than trying to decide if high adventure bases are protected.

Even if BSA wants to do right by victims, going out in a blaze of glory is never the smart thing. They have their purpose to continue to serve. They are balancing multiple factors and different legal advice. One person's delay is another's negotiation tactic / strategy.

Only using BOLD to reflect key points for those who SKIM. Agreed. That will be the plantiff's argument. I'm betting the defense would respond ... that "BSA KNEW" but believed they were managing the same issues other organizations that served youth. Schools, YMCAs, churches, youth ministries, etc. The BSA KNEW can be offset by the standard of care of the time. ... So, did they view themselves as dealing uniquely with evil ugliness that many organizations didn't have. If viewing themselves like many other organizations, than the IVF becomes a higher level of care than other organizations. ... I've already argued that ... my additional point is ... "BSA KNEW" that is absolutely a debateable point ... but did they see themselves as having more risk than any other youth serving group? ... If it doesn't matter, than most schools and church groups and other youth serving groups should shut down as they have huge risk. Similar arguement to the past ... Consider today ... with today's laws ... with broad mandatory reporting ... with enlightened science ... with enlightened understanding of abuse ... Now, use Google and search "school teacher chaged" ... limit it to the last month ... Google gives you 20 pages of incidents covered in the last month ... Western Colorado Lockport, IL Greenbay, WI Shoreham, NY Atascocita, TX Spokane, WA Brandon, FL Providence, Utah; many, many, many more ... Assume 3 unique incidents per page (it's a sampled guess) ... multiple by 20 google pages ... muiltiply by 12 months ... multiply by 60 years (similar to BSA''s case spread) ... That's 43,200 ... probably fewer now due to current laws ... to mandatoring reporting ... to enlightened understanding. Even today, with everything in place. schools have not been able to stop on-going abuse. Now consider most victims don't talk about it until years later ... Now consider offenders often have multiple victims ... That 43,200 becomes hundreds of thousands or millions. https://victimsofcrime.org/child-sexual-abuse-statistics/ ... Statistics are wildly varied, but a Slate article says of current high schoolers, 4.5 million have had sexual abuse by school staff and 3 million have sexual touching or assault. Multiply that out from the 60 years of BSA's cases. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/02/is-sexual-abuse-in-schools-very-common.html And, we're not even talking about the 17,000 cases found by AP in the last four years thru high school sports programs ... many of them involving penetration and coaches minimizing as inappropriate touching ... https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/05/08/sex-assaults-in-high-school-sports-minimized-as-hazing ... or the Larry Nassars or the Olympic coaches or the college doctors or the ... I'm not trying to lessen the ugly evil. I'm asserting "BSA KNEW" is a point that can be argued. ... Did BSA KNOW something different than they thought other organizations face? Many other organizations also KNEW but were doing less. Many still continue to have issues, but their doors are still open. Was BSA to uniquely close it's doors because of an issue many youth serving organizations face. Let's face it ... like many scouters ... I can be long winded to make just one or two points ... scouters like to chat.

... only providing BOLD to show my main points ... not raising my voice ... I often skim documents looking for key points ... it helps ... when something peaks my interest, I'll read the surrounding material ... I'm familiar that we have several lawyers posting in this thread. I'm not a lawyer but I am posting as it doesn't seem we are getting valid legal advice representing BSA's best interest. Yes ... we want ... how much and when .... but there is no such thing ... there is no fixed price tag or fixed date. ... depending how motions, arguments, cases, negotations, trials, etc ... this could be survivable or devastating. The HOW MUCH is not a calculation from a set of facts. It's the result of a legal process. The WHEN is when the legal process is done. This legal process that will be fought for months and years (this or related cases) with motions and findings. I would not be surprised if one or more judges spend the rest of their career overseeing these specific cases. I asserted it because we keep hearing BSA's delaying, BSA should just hand over; etc. ... yep ... we all want that ... it makes things clean and easy. ... I want it too. MY POINT IS --> It's not good legal advice. #64 asks for the material that would be provided at trial. Disclosure motions are a huge part before any trial and can go on for a long time. I seriously asked .. #64 refers to a "trial"? Is the trial scheduled? What is the date? Is BSA in pre-trial discovery process? What are the deadlines for witness lists? Submitting evidence ? etc. ... Or are we in mediation to find a way out of the bankruptcy? As for the reference to providing why/how BSA will defend Summit as reserved (or other asserts for that matter ... it's asking for BSA"s future game plan ... I'd want to delay too until absolutely required or it's in my best interest. I provided the Advocate link because it confirms my thoughts ... no good lawyer would automatically hand over details automatically. Am I legally required at this moment? All of it or some? Does it help or hurt his client? In BSA'san his client preserve funds to continue operating? From the outside, we all want the final answer ... how much and when ... but a fixed price is a myth . Like Toby Ziegler's lawyer pointed out ... it's not in the clients interest to go out in a blaze of glory providing opposing lawyers everything they want (evidence, strategy, arguments, etc ...) It can help and it can definitely hurt too. This will be long and drawn out. The more I watch ... These cases has years to go.

64. In an effort to streamline the Restricted Property Action, the TCC has made repeated requests that the Boy Scouts inform it whether it intends to offer evidence at trial to meet its double burdens of proof or if it intends to attempt to convince the Court that Judge Sontchi’s opinions should not be followed. If the former, the TCC has requested the prompt production of the evidence that the Boy Scouts will rely on at trial to meet its burdens of proof. If the latter, the matter may be disposed of by summary judgment. To date, the Boy Scouts has refused to do either. I'm a West Wing fan. A favorite episode is when Toby Ziegler has confessed to revealing a national secret. Toby wants to tell everything to the white house attorney and FBI. Toby's lawyer finally shows up and points out that confessing your soul may feel really good, but it's an incredibly stupid thing to do. Toby finally follows her advice. #64 refers to a "trial"? Is the trial scheduled? Is BSA in pre-trial discovery process? Or are we in mediation to find a way out of the bankruptcy? Obviously, I'm not a lawyer, but trials have painfully detailed rules for disclosure ... expert witnesses, research, reports, etc. ... effectively revealing a trial strategy Until that process starts, BSA is in a negotaiton process with creditors ... aka mediation ... subject to similar PROs and CONS listed here. https://www.advocatemagazine.com/article/2019-august/sharing-information-at-mediation The article is not a perfect match ... but it does reflect it's not good legal advice to give the opposite party all your legal plans before you are required to do that. I'd like to see all information and all the plans of what will be introduced at a trial, but that may not be good legal advice.

Your points reflect a desire for a one sided presentation which denies the reality of the current day. Your points simply silence opposite views. It's hypocritical to continue to bash BSA and it's leaders yet complain about protests against the $1500 per hour legal fees. Yes. The present and the future will not be better because of this bankruptcy. Most of these threads just re-hash the same arguements without much enlightenment on the actual bankruptcy.

Welcome to the reality of the legal game. It's how it works.

Your words are well written ... until I see "BSA will never do that..." ... this is where we disagree. Statements like that are explicitly factually wrong. BSA has acknowledged and agreed that a debt is owed for wrongs. They have said that for years now. Absolutely acknowledge that the sharing of abuse statements from the past is helpful. That's good to hear. Just don't compound a useful statement with yet another accusation that damages the information exchange in this forum.

Don't insensitively infer we are not aware of the ugliness of evil. Don't insensitively infer we are cold or dare us to read. We've read. We're aware. Many of us have opinions that these evils succeeded in an era of ignorance by all of society with many, many, many groups sharing fault. We're not saying it's good or acceptable. Evil has always existed and it's always been ugly. This is a forum for discussion. It can be done without slandering others. I really do suggest you lock these threads. It helps no one.

Hmmm ... I trust you are refering to something like this ... See FS-601 Food Standards https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/2019-National-NCAP-Standards.pdf It's obviously a good idea. It's a good tool also to use for self reflection on your menus. BUT, does it explicitly apply as a strict rule to a OA conclave? When I read page 6 of the above link, I read think of camps that are run by paid staff and are marketed and advertised as such. I think of $1200 Sea Base, $1200 Philmont, $300+ council week long summer camps, $100+ webelos summer camps, council day camps, etc. I think of something that is to reflect paid professional programming and paid food service that happens with business like execution. I think of auditors that assess if the paid staff meet the standard. Then, the program gets a pendant to hang in the dining hall for that year. OA conclaves (and fall district camporees) are NOT BSA accredited. OA conclaves are volunteer led / coordinated and more closely resemble a troop than a paid program. Instead of a troop, you have a lodge. Instead of a SPL, you have a lodge chief. Instead of a SM, you have a lodge advisor. Likewise, cost resembles volunteer organization with cost covering food and camp-site fees. Costs don't reflect a paid program. Page 6 extract is below. PURPOSE OF THE STANDARDS The BSA national camp standards are established to: 1. Ensure the health, safety, and well-being of every camper, leader, visitor, and staff member while participating in a BSA-accredited camp. 2. Ensure that each camper and leader obtains a quality program consistent with the BSA brand. The local council is responsible for maintaining the BSA national camp standards. The national camp standards are the foundation of the National Camp Accreditation Program, which assesses council and camp conformance with the requirements of the national camp standards. THE NATIONAL CAMP ACCREDITATION PROGRAM The purpose of the BSA’s National Camp Accreditation Program (NCAP) is to help councils elevate camps to new levels of excellence in delivering Scouting’s promise to youth

The only reason I suggest a camps with regular volunteer led activities open to both scout patrols and lone scouts (aka family scouting) is that times have changes. Many parents won't back away from their kids and recognize kids need to solve their own issues. So the question then becomes, is there a way we can show value to those scouts where the parents won't back away from their kids? Maybe the camp master could setup a time where the camp master would be willing to observe and sign-off on seeing a youth setup a tent and understand what is needed. Maybe, another youth could cook dinner using dutch ovens and a skilled volunteer effectively could sign off on some of the skill requirements. My preference is patrol based and continually mentoring the adults to back off. But the outdoors is key and even without the patrol, youth can learn skills, self-reliance and that they can deal with and survive hardships more than they'd ever believe. BP created something great, but times change and programs evolve.

As scouts should have boating, shooting sports, hikes, etc... camps should promote a long list of prefered adult activities ... read a book, take a nap, clean your car, perform a camp service project like paint a building, etc. Effectively all activities that keep them far more than arms length away from the scouts.

You should lock all these threads. The bankruptcy is just bringing out the worst in everyone and just breading anger. Block all commentaries and only allow posting ofew newspaper articles. Heck, even then I'm sure both sides can find supportive newspaper articles.

I never saw the IVF file on your unit. So, I can only speak in generalities. But it's awareness is very much different than approval or support. Often SEs can't do anything until incidents happen. And the incidents are relative to the times. Drinking and porn were not automatic ejections back then and definitely don't have the same legal consequences as now. My point is BSA had at any time a million leaders (volunteer and paid). The huge vast majority were righteous upstanding people. I'm not willing to brand BSA or all the good it did based on the interpretation of select incidents.

That's been happening for many years. The latest round after sharing with 80,000+ claimants will get pennies compared to some of the earlier lawsuits. So it can be. Business partners have a right to opt in and out depending on their situation. It's how legal rights work.

If the right laws were in place ... if the right education and training was in place ... there was no way this should have been dropped once the police report happened. You say I'm dumping BSA liability. I'd say you are misbranding BSA as a self-interested evil doer. BSA was filled with millions and millions of volunteer and paid professions who were 100% focused on doing right by the youth. When things fell below the line, it was the aberration and not the norm. The situation sounds exactly like a product of the times. But you are right in one way. I do view the IVF as an effort to prevent abuse and was better than many organizations at the time.

I did not want details. I was just curious how far the police went. Interviews? a real report being filed? Anyone arrested? etc, etc. If police were pulled in, the police are working with the victims and it's outside scouting control. I'm betting it was dropped for the same many reasons many cases were dropped. Not taking it seriously enough. Right criminal laws not yet in place. People not understanding nature of abuse. People satisfied by the person quitting. People not wanting their family in the center of attention and being labeled victims. etc, etc. ... Once police were contacted, I suspect it was handled the same as if it was a church, a school or any other civic organization. ... In those days, the prosecutions were not there.

A key point is deep pockets. Having each LC handle their own breaks up the incentive of deep pockets. Let the cases be handled on their merits and even be grouped at the council level. But the national scale to combine it all together is just too vast and not controllable. If I was a LC SE, I'd 100% consider this strategy. Being lumped in together in one massive negotiation escalates the issues beyond control. We are not supposed to raise the fees issue here, but the others are arguing about BSA not negotiating in good faith. That's wrong too. This is a legal case at this point with legal strategy. If LCs go on their own, they have less deep pockets that pull national attention. Some councils will continue with liabilities because of SOL extensions or depth of problem, but many councils can continue and find their own path.

With today's challenges (liabilities, YPT, charter org, family time, etc), is there a possibility to refocus scouting around the council camps? Camps offering weekend skills training ... weekend advancement testing and sign-off ... Camps offering monthly adventure opportunities ... I'm sure you could establish a program that doesn't require a huge paid staff. Instead, leverage camp masters and skilled volunteers to teach and test. Leverage "family scouting" to provide the YPT. Think of it as a state park with resources, skills instruction and advancement. Where I've donated hours to my local unit, I'd be willing to camp once a month to teach shooting sports ... or cooking ... or fires ... or knife safety ... or tent setup. etc, etc, etc. It could serve lone-scouts or family scouting ... AND PERHAPS ... patrols. The cub dens could continue but mature and grow into independent patrols where the adults are pulled more and more out until the patrols work and function on their own. ... Patrols truely being the fundamental unit of scouting. Just a thought. We have such great camps. It seems we could leverage them more.