fred8033

Perhaps I'm not understanding the question. Lots out there. https://www.boyscouttrail.com/boy-scouts/boy-scout-ceremonies.asp http://scoutmaster.org/rank_ceremonies_final.pdf https://www.boyscouttrail.com/ceremony_search.asp http://usscouts.org/usscouts/ceremony/bsarcer.asp https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ceremonies.pdf Lots out there... Plus here are my words of advice. Avoid native American themed ceremonies. Times have changed. Not everyone will be understanding. Create your own tradition ... advancing a patch on an advancement board ... scouts telling stories ... ask their most helpful leader (youth or adult) to pin the advancement rank ... lighting a candle on an advancement tree ... One word. Food. Our troop rotation was four COHs a year. COH #1 (Jan/Feb/Mar) was family pot luck. COH #2 (Apr/May/Jun) was troop grills meat and families bring sides. COH #3 (Jul/Aug/Sep ... after summer camp) was bring your own. COH #4 (Oct/Nov/Dec) was anothr family pot luck. ... And then we had a December pizza party (not a COH). ... LOL ... our scouts ate well. As for "21st century" ... at some time, old comes back in style again.

I've seen "deleted" discussed in the past. From an old registrar, it was reflecting how they tracked registered leaders. Deleted was not hiding. It was removing the registration.

CSA ?? What did the police report say? It's common for people to quickly resign after an ugly incident ... especially where they have done wrong. It's the only thing they can control. The rest is out of their hands. Plus, they often have magical thinking that they can avoid repercussions if they leave. ... I'm sure many times they did ... So, I would not be surprised if the resignation happened days or even weeks before the other dates. Deciding to come forward takes time. Investigations take time. There was no email or texting back then. It was all hard-wired phone and typed paper. The biggest delay often is people have to decide whether to submit a police report. Police reports themselves have to be put together. There were no mandatory reports in any field back then. I would not be surprised if the sequence was: --> abuse --> discovery --> confrontation --> resignation --> complains to leaders (unit, council, charter org) --> police reports. Things could take days or weeks. The IVF entry you describe sounds SADLY very common. I'd also ask ... why did the police not continue. Once it's in police hands, it's beyond unit / council / charter org control. It's always been that way. Why did the police not pursue it? It sounds like they had the name of the victim and his family.

I absolutely agree. ... but even further ... in addition to requiring mandatory reporting from all youth serving organizations ... Federal government should also spin-up an extension/branch of the FBI that would host an intake point for abuse complaints from all sources. Then based on location and other categories, it could be routed to the correct local authorities, city / state police. In addition, schools, unversities, etc could be notified too. FBI would not need to investigate. Rather, it would route and report patterns and statistics.

I'd love to see your perception of the Lion and Tiger program compared to what you experienced or remember as a youth. Many of us argue that cubs is now starting too soon and parents are burning out before their kids cross into troops ... where the big development and value happens ... independence, leadership, etc. ... I know it won't happen, but I crave for cub scouts to start again at 2nd grade or so. I'd love to see a separate thread on your experiences ... versus those of us who have hashed out the discussion from the adult leader perspective.

December 2020 ... airlines also saw a fraction of the flyers. We should probably close half the airports too. Probably don't need as many roads either ... major downtowns have not had the business people ... probably reduce the investments in downtowns ... but ya know ... there was a pandemic ... people not meeting face-to-face ... BSA also has been fighting the worst of all storms for 20 years. BSA's big failure was not finding a safe course and it has lost a generation of youth. Dale vs BSA. Membership battles (gender, faith, orientation). Rehashing 50 years of abuse scandals. That storm can end with exiting bankruptcy. That's the whole reason bankruptcy exists: to give businesses a clean slate. If BSA can get past this bankruptcy, scouting will make a comeback. It might be 10 or 20 years out, but it will comeback ... if done right. The first thing is it needs to get past the bankruptcy and all the political messes. UK scouting crashed and came back. BSA's can too. Kids and parents crave outdoor experiences. The local council will need their camps. Ideally, Philmont and the high adventure bases will continue to exist. If not, expect national parks to be flooded with scout units. Troop XXX will reserve sites 39, 40, 41, 42 and 43 and the XXX state park or national park / forest. Our troop has done it repeatedly. Imagine if it was the only option for scouting youth.

I hugely disagree with that statement. Especially the generation that were raised indoors with video games and cable tv crave outdoor experiences and skills for their kids. It's a phenomenon very close to BP's original purpose of introducing city kids to woodcraft skills. Kids too love new experiences: hiking, climbing, canoeing, being outside in a torrential downpour. Outdoors also teaches conservation, simplicity and ecology. The newest parents demand that. Outdoors is not the issue. That never gets old. Fire. Knives. Bow and arrows. It's the paramiltary appearance of scouting that has definitely fallen out of style. From the outside, scouting can look creepy and anacronistic: march, salaute, military like uniforms, etc. Those deeply involved know that scouting is much more about the outdoors, ecology, etc. But from the outside, scouting can look a bit creepy.

I often think about what the law was back when these cases happened. Would the same conclusion have been reached? Did the BSA see themselves as "operating" the troop? Or did they see COs as operating the troop and BSA providing a program structure? Like a franchise model. Having the law as it exists now, BSA would have done better to structure itself as an intellectual licensing business offering a program. Heck, I'm sure many people thought that is exactly what they were doing and had no idea they were taking "ownership" of so much or ever conceived they had the responsibilities bigger than all the others that signed. Heck, the charter org representative signs adult leader applications where the references of the individual are listed. That charter org rep is much more close to the volunteers than any council or national person. I've never heard a charter org rep call the references. Was BSA originally legally negligent? I'm betting if you asked a 1978 jury judged a 1978 incident, you'd find few liability awards and many would have summary judgement ending the case.

Only time will heal these wounds. Only getting outdoors sitting under a tarp during a downpour will wash the pain. Many times it's the kids of the extremely dedicated adults who get affected the most. They see the damage, the cost, the pain, the frustration. They may be wisely saying they don't want to repeat that. I really believe scouting works best when it's kept simple. Get outside and go for a hike. Light a camp fire and cook a meal. Overly focusing on the ideal way of running scouting damages the program. It's fun and useful to think about the ideal scouting program, but when it comes to working with others and working with the scouts, be like Nike. Just do it. I wish you the best. Be there for your son. Create good memories. Leave the past in the past.

Absolutely agree. Which points of law will be emphasized? Which will yield a conclusion or just more litigation? How is the court leaning to affect whether law is interpreted to reach a desired conclusion or applied to find the conclusion?

It makes sense though. Philmont, Seabase and Northern Tier offer experiences scouters can get elsewhere. Many of Philmont's outposts can be found at summer camps or elsewhere. All the hiking, canoeing and other activities can be found elsewhere too. BUT ... the Summit is an identify for BSA. A gathering spot. An event venue. Tens of thousands of scouts can gather. A unique property. Plus, it's the only high-adventure base on the east coast within reasonable drive of large population centers. It's a huge asset. A hundred years from now it could eclipse Philmont as a BSA brand-name property.

Agree. Your reasoning is on target. Simple exit with a huge paycheck. Deep pockets drive these cases. Often the best way to protect yourself from such cases is to not have assets. Litigants want a conclusion and cash; not some some end-date years in the future and a promise of a check five or ten years out. I'm sure many would settle for X if 2X means ten more years, lots of additional cost and continued risk gambling the payout. Imaginge the legal and court costs to liquidate council assets? Imagine the suits about disputing clear proper titles? This forum itself has shared multiple examples of "Friends of Xamp XXXX" that have sued or theatened suit. Examples of family members of the original donor trying to reclaim assets protected assets.

Statue of limitations is a confusing topic and seems extremely pliable to the point we can quesiton if limitations really exist. I fear the Illinois case as it's reasoning effectively eliminates statue of limitations in many cases. For BSA, Illinois elimiated it because of BSA's special relationship installing morals. What about those of churches that exist to instill morals also? What about those of schools that exist to instill reasoning and knowledge? What about medical who's special relationship is to lookout for the health and wellfare of the patient? What about police ... What about employers who's "special relationship" is as a source of money for people to buy food, house themselves, etc? ... I know many people who sweat losing their job and might hush up many things. What about a family member? There is no more special relationship. What about landlords? That's a pretty special relationship. Seems statues of limitations might only exist when you don't interact with other people.

Incompetence or strategy. Not really sure which.

Where you'd say he has no right to call out wrong when he earned his money that way, I'd say people don't have the right to represent themselves as in it to help victims when they are billing $1000 per hour. Those invoices are prima facia evidence that there's a lot of people in this to get rich. Not everyone. But definitely many. Or helping BSA when billing $1000 per hour. Sorry, you're doing it because you can bill $1000 per hour. I suspect by the end of this, both BSA and plaintiffs attorneys will have charged massive amounts. I'm not sure who will have charged more by the time this is history.

We're probably closer in opinion then differ on this one. But I would assert sometimes other criminals understand crime better than the innocent.

You should not disparage the character of individuals so soon after saying we are accusing others. It's probably fair game if he's viewing this from the side lines.

We are not accusing specific individuals. It's the whole situation. Anyone can feel emotionally connected and work their hearts out for $1000 per hour. How about doing it for $100 per hour? Ya definitely won't starve at that rate? It's emotional for me because my sons worked as camp staff. I think of their hard work ... often working wake-up to bed-time for minimum wage, effectively $4 per hour. Or the lower level scouting staff that earns a fraction of their value. ... OR ... The millions of BSA adult volunteers over the years that have not been paid and instead paid thousands to volunteer. ... Think of it ... High point of membership was 7,000,000 youth (or so). Over 100 years, say average one million new scouts per year. Take 25% of that as registered adult leaders. That's 25 million adult volunteers that worked for free. ... CORRECTION ... that paid to volunteer and then paid again all their own expenses. Now, consider the morality of billing $1000 per hour and convincing people you are driven by the wrongs done in the past.

Absolutely agree. The law can absolutely be a noble profession and extremely hard. And some lawyers are absolutely just charging large sums when their clients can afford it and their clients agree. I'm really not thinking this is the BSA situation though. There is something completely immoral about this.

Great quote ... “All of us have discounted our rates on these cases because, if all the money goes to the lawyers, there’s not going to be anything left for survivors,” said Susan Boswell, an Arizona bankruptcy attorney who has worked on several abuse cases involving the Catholic Church in which she has dropped her hourly rate — normally $700 — to as low as $450, she said." Still immoral if it's only half as immoral. Index the "discounted" maximum rate to 10 times minimum wage. I just have trouble calling $450 per hour "discounted".

It's a partnership. A&B in business together. A can't ditch B without recompense, but if B fails, that does not mean A is forced to go down with the ship. A can find ways to survive and continue. If anything, A has a claim against B for impact to A's business. Perhaps the LCs should counter sue in bankruptcy for business impact due to BSA's legal issues. If BSA goes out of business, LCs should sue for legal rights to the intellectual property they have depended on. That seems fair.

It's called a "kick-back". Choose us to be your lawyers and we will give you 10% of our fees. ... Of course, we'll make sure our fee is at least 20% higher than other clients. Thus, you both get richer thru the kickback. We had a local place give a box of stakes if you chose them to replace your car's windshield. Very popular place ... until the insurance companies succeeded pointing out they were being billed well above the value of the stakes. I think courts got involved and agreed that the insurance company did not need to pay.

Simple fact is local charters can function without BSA. They can keep using the same program. Slightly change. Or offer a more general youth oriented, outdoor leadership experience program. Councils can keep serving the "scouting purpose" relatively easily without BSA national.

I accidentally tripped into a billing. I should have figured all the groups legal fees would be visible. Here is a TCC vendor bill. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/884358_2487.pdf Many more "Fee Applications" can be found by typing "fee application" into this web site: https://cases.omniagentsolutions.com/documents?clientid=CsgAAncz%2B6Yclmvv9%2Fq5CGybTGevZSjdVimQq9zQutqmTPHesk4PZDyfOOLxIiIwZjXomPlMZCo%3D&tagid=1153

Claimant fees are racking up at similar rates. The motion document also quotes "TCC professionals are charging the estate similarly high rates, with eight lawyers from the TCC’s lead law firm billing at over $1,000/hour in January 2021, for example." ... How many law firms and lawyers are representing the claimants? I'm not sure if claimants lawyers get paid every three months like BSA's lawyers or have to wait for a final settlement. I'm just saying legal fees of both sides are arrogantly huge.