fred8033

Inconsistency would be a red flag to me. I'd hope CO has all CO's youth groups follow the same direction. But it's the CO's choice.

I would not be so quick to write things off. I agree with the studies. But I also raised four kids. At the 2 month and 15 month (?? intervals) vaccines, each had fevers or grumpy / irritable after their vaccinations. I remember two that went from making some pre-speech sounds before vaccine to not making some again for months. ... I'm not blaming the vaccine. But vaccines are known to cause fever and grumpy / irritable babies after. It is not wholly inconceivable that someday a connection will be found saying fever affects ear channels and can slow speech development or has some minor speech. I'm pro-vaccine. The good far out weighs the bad. BUT, it's arrogant to say something that is known to cause fevers, affect mood, etc does not affect a child that is growing and doing new things daily. Anyway, I'm pro-vaccine and pro-defending people who have concerns.

Thank you. This will be interesting to see how it plays out. I can easily see it going either direction. Showing fraud on one side.. Other side potentially arguing need for cash to pay legal costs and reserves to pay damages to the number of victims projected at the time, less than 2000 at that time.

HONEST QUESTIONS ... #1 Excluding lender collusion and lender fraud ... excluding no previously existing rights to the asset .... a secure debt is a secure debt. The lender has a right to repayment independent of the reasons the borrow took out the loan. It's easy to question the timing of the loan and even how the loaned money is being used, ... but does any of this affect the status of the secured asset? Even then, this seems like a minor point. The insurance companies seem to be the biggest potential contributor. #2 Without insurance claim caps, would the insurance companies be at risk to pay the same claims twice? Once for BSA liability. Once for council liability? Perhaps a 3rd time for CO liability if the insurance was to cover them too? ... Without bankruptcy protection, insurance companies could continue to bleed for the same cases. I understand it depends on when the insurance contract was written ... are there caps ... were both BSA and local councils listed, etc. ... I'm just wondering if insurance could pay the same victim twice or three times because of different clients (BSA, LC, CO) libel for the same event and the insurance company covering all those libel.

More than once I wished for a delete button ... or a "Way Back Machine" button.

Never would have guess you could use a hammock on Munson island.

No issues. If anything, it might be a nice separation. The only worry I'd have is extra work that conflicts with schedule. For myself, I got involved at the district level because of our troop not hearing enough at the district level.

Fair enough. I overreacted. Please attribute it to a long day and too many hours between relatives with strongly different political positions. I'm extremely frustrated that we have no middle ground anymore. I was discussing this with my son on the way home. We've lost the ability to keep our emotions out of current events. Me too. For me, I cringe hearing this sort of thing. I believe in vaccines, but then I've got the relatives mocking those who don't trust all vaccines and intentionally demeaning them with anti-vaxxer. Devaluing their thoughts and person. It hurts hearing one group mock the other. It gets my dandruff up to defend those protesting. It's hard to be a friend to all when people who's position I agree then mock the other group. My national reaction is to defend those who have been demeaned. So again, my apologies. It hit a sensitive point.

Pairing back my comments. My apologies if I write too explicitly. This smells of the over-zealous using their scouting position over others to force a medical choice and medical tracking. It's wrong.

A few comments Focus less on strict "rules" and more about creating great experiences Rank award is important if the kid / family value it. If you can "reasonably" justify it, then help the family / cub. Watch out for making extra work for the den leader Watch out for the scout being separated from their friends In the long path of scouting advancement, no Cub rank is all that important. FOR ME AND MINE ... I'd focus more on their connection to their fellow cubs and classmates more than if they get the patch. If they are obsessed about getting the patch ... and I can justify some reasonable path ... fine. I'd go out of my way to help. But, every kid doesn't have to get every patch. Few kids wearing Eagle will have the slightest memory if they earned a specific cub batch; often not even Arrow of Light. DO NOT SWITCH DENS .. I would definitely not move them to a younger den to try to get the patch and then move them back. Continuity with fellow scouts is important. Maybe attend a rank requirement event if it conveniently overlaps ... but even then ... the previous rank patch is just not that important and the other den should not be distracted with a cub from another den. HARD DATE: ... ???? ... If you had to have a hard date, perhaps the first day of the next grade. Generally ... RANK = SCHOOL GRADE. Did the kid earn the rank during that school year (plus or minus summer)? Is there some way to justify it ? MY BIG FEAR ... If the scout's den is active and working the next rank, then more damage is done by pulling the cub away from his classmates. Further, you are distracting the cub with old requirements instead of the den's current focus.

Cool. I love hearing stories like this. I'm familiar with a local camp that served as a small charter school also. In addition, most of our camps have school groups, sports groups, etc coming in through-out the summer. Our in-city camp seems to have a school group daily. A cub camp that's about 30 miles out hosts sports groups during the week in the summer. I remember visiting a week when a soccer league was using it as a training site.

Well written. I agree with "no way to a fast solution can come if you include councils." That seems fully correct. It means litigation for years, but that may be the best path forward.

Perhaps Virtus training has evolved again ... I've taken it a few times as it's evolved ... BSA YPT and Catholic Church Virtus are very different and are complementary. Multiple times I've said I thought both organizations would be better if the training was combined / merged. Virtus is excellent at raising awareness, emphasizing the seriousness, how to look for signs of abuse, how to report, etc. I still remember the first time watching the interview with the roller skating teacher jailed serial abuser. His interview was shocking and eye opening. BSA YPT is more focused on stating expected behavior and communicating the G2SS rules. I often deal with quality mgmt and process oversight. Explicit requirements are critical. G2SS is that standard we follow. It's not perfect, but it sets expectations. Both can easily be criticized. Virtus is light on specifics behavior expectations. Virtus lacks a supporting G2SS like standard reference. A simple one is I'd like to see Virtus have rules like: No one-on-one contact. Or guidance that if you need one-on-one contact, do it in the presence of others. BSA YPT is lacking on the gravitas. This is real. It happens and will happen in your area. You don't want to be the leader / adult who misses it. BSA YPT and Catholic Virtus trainings are both excellent. I find them commentary, but lacking without having taken the other.

So six months to negotiate an agreement before trial ... or during trial ... or wait for end of trial. This could be easily a year out.

That's great to hear. Negotiating demonstrates two separate entities. Variance of the charter agreement / by-laws across LCs further demonstrates separate entities.

I intentionally avoided this question earlier. It really inflates this debate drastically. I've always been wondered how legally LCs/COs could buy into bankruptcy protection of without going thru the bankruptcy process themselves. Identifying and prioritizing creditors. Establishing assets and revenue. Confirming whether they can pay their existing debts. etc, etc, etc With prioritized debtors, now how much to pay to clear liens, old debt, new debt, etc.

Love your uniform. You look great!

I'm always interested in policies and procedures. Weird, but true. My projects often live and die with how to interpret policies and procedures. I've read much of the document now. I would have guessed an OA Conclave was not subject to the document to the BSA Accreditation subjects, rather just G2SS. Not council organized. Each OA lodge has it's own conclave with it's own personnel. If it does apply, it seems you need to know the answer in advance to know how to interpret this guide. The guide itself is not a clean statement of what's in scope. Seriously asking: How do I interpret the 2021 version? OA conclaves? OA work weekends? Troop camp-outs? Do we need a dietician to review the meal menus our scouts create for their patrols?

The CO has already told you they have other plans / thoughts. If you want the funds to go to a food bank, get the CO approval first. If you do it first on-your-own, it's not a good deed. It's just spite and will cause more trouble. When you decide to move on or you've been told to move on, move on. Don't look back. Don't go for vengeance. Just move on. Find the next best path for you and your kids. Also, don't try to help ... especially if you've already been told they want to make a change. It's their issue now. Yes, you've lost the funds. That is how it works. It is and always was the CO's money. Ideally to be used for scouting, but it's still their funds.

Again, I'm not the lawyer, but there is liability for damages and negligence for not exercising ordinary care. Defining the ordinary expected exercise of care at the time does go to defining negligence ... especially as we talk cases from 40 / 50 years ago.

Yep. That is what we are talking about. And the how much and when is not an automatic one hour discussion and done. This will take months or years to resolve. And if/when LCs and COs are pulled in, it's many more legal cases. This will be ugly for years.

@Eagle1993 ... So what is the liquidation value of The Summit ? I'm directly reading this as one creditor has the vast majority of the debt for that property. I'm reading this as The Summit liquidation value could be less than $100 million if not far less. Also, I'm assuming The Summit is a secured debt where the liquidation value would first pay the creditor secured by the debt. If SeaBase, Northern Tier and Philmont are about $60 million in value and The Summit has such high debt, BSA corporate land assets are much lower than I expected. I expected the land assets to be $700M+, if not higher. Now, I'm learning the value could be $100M or so. A relative small amount of the bankruptcy. @Eagle1993 ... is that right?

Ok. So it would be liquidated by some organization or by BSA with agreement ... then the bankruptcy would portion out value across the creditors. BSA handing over the summit to TCC is more rhetoric than process.

Naive question ... but you keep saying just turn the thing over to TCC ... BSA can't do that right ? There are multiple creditors in line? COs. LCs. Girl Scouts. Other victim representatives. Or are you saying TCC gets to take title and sell ... then hand over money to others creditors based on their plan? I ask as one of the key things in business is controlling who has the dollars. Who ever has the dollars in their bank account has a lot of control? During graduate studies I remember dealing with a business man who was talking about a payment his company got accidentally (not me). The guy said he's give them back the money as it was theirs, but he was going to wait and see if they asked three times. He was betting they'd give up after two. ... They gave up and his small company (insurance firm) was enriched by $10,000+. It creeped me out, but I've seen that before. I was wondering if it is a figure of speech or if TCC really would get a property title handed over. Or if there is another group that would get the property title and sell on behalf of the creditors.

I'd find it hard to believe it's a clear split.