fred8033

I'm not sure it is a different discussion. Perhaps it is one of many rabbit holes why scouting has declined, but fundamentally scouting has disappointed too many kids. ... speaking from my perspective ... what I've seen is we begin to hold such high ideals for scouting that we then forget it's the simple stuff that makes the magic. The fires. The burnt pancakes. The laughs. The outdoors. Scouting too often becomes like school or like drudge work and it doesn't have to be that way.

Well written! I questioned focusing on leadership because troops don't teach it well. I question focusing on leadership because scout's don't show up to take leadership courses. ... "adult run" ... I'm not really sure anymore what it means. I've seen so many adults argue over "adult run" and "boy led" that I'm tired of the discussion. I've seen so many adults proudly assert teach leadership with actions and comments that I found incredibly destructive. At this point, I just don't trust the average (or above average) scout leader to teach leadership. ... I'm okay saying leadership is important to the image of scouting and the marketing of scouting. Fine. I agree. But when you say what do scouts do at meetings and what do troops to as part of the scouting program, I want to remove much of the explicit emphasis on leadership. EXAMPLE: Patrol needs to plan for a campout. SPL (or SM supporting SPL) should say to pick menu, who's going to shop, who shares tents, who brings what, what activities, etc. Then, let the PL work thru it with his patrol. They will stumble the first several times. But by the 10th time, their gears should be greased and they start having success. Perhaps a few small conversations such as (SPL or SM): (SPL/SM-->PL) Ready for this weekend? ... or... What's your big meal? ... or ... how many are going ... Simple quick questions that let the PL speak, represent and reflect on how thepatrol is doing. I'll stand with my original statement though. "Leadership. I just don't think troops teach it well. I question focusing on leadership. I question encouraging adults to teach leadership. Scouts will learn leadership naturally by trying to get their scouts out doing things. Be active, etc. " I've seen troops with check-list after check-list. I've seen troops that don't feel like they can develop leadership because they lack senior scouts. I've seen patrol meetings where two or three adults hover at the patrol meeting to help the patrol run effective patrol meetings. I've seen adults inject and badger on how to be a leader so much that I'm tired of watching it crash and burn. ... Worse, I don't think adults agree on how to teach leadership or how to do youth led. I'd much rather see our emphasis being: Hey, we haven't done a 50 mile bike trip this year? Who has a good idea where to go? The leadership development will come thru the stress of participation and being active and doing interesting things. Hey, we've got 15 miles left and two hours before dark. We better finish eating and get moving so we have time to setup our tents for the night. My apologies if I sounds harsh. I don't intend to be. Written words always appear more harsh than the spoken voice. ... I'd really like scouts to get back to being active and doing interesting things as the key method to teach leadership. I'm always sad talking with Eagle scouts who's troop didn't camp much or never went on a canoe trip or never was really stretched as part of the program.

Who was the beneficiary? "community" is not acceptable. You need a real entity: non-profit, city, school, church, etc. Events can be legitimate eagle projects. Out-of-the-box projects can be some of the best. This project might also be fighting the perception of a video game contest as not a real, significant thing. ... Us old guys have a hard time with it. Heck, I have a standing 10 guy golf trip every year. We fly in and are always astounded that one of the massive hotels is now permanently branded as an esports arena. ... We can't believe it's a real thing. But it is. I might need some convincing, but if the beneficiary is real and says it helps them ... who would I be to argue.

Well said. I saw when "Leadership Development" was added as an aim and wondered. Then, I forgot but I'm still uncomfortable with it there. IMHO, it was added for marketing purposes without thinking about whether it was really a "method". IMHO, listing as a method does more damage than good. Then again ... I also question listing it as a "method". They are objectives, not "methods" ... Plus we just don't teach it well. Ideals – Good method ... We push oath and law as useful ideals to resolve everything. Patrols – Good method ... We encourage small groups for many reasons. Outdoor Programs – New fresh experiences trigger growth. Great Advancement – Fine. Kids like bling and bragging points. Fine. Association with Adults – Fine. Scouts encouraged to interact to build confidence. Uniform – Being seen as part of a group. Living up to standards. Fine. Two methods that are not parallel. These are really objectives or marketing points. Personal Growth – "Encourage looking for "personal growth" ... As Scouts plan their activities and progress toward their goals, they experience personal growth. The Good Turn concept is a major part of the personal growth method of Scouting. Young people grow as they participate in community service projects and do Good Turns for others. Probably no device is so successful in developing a basis for personal growth as the daily Good Turn. The religious emblems program also is a large part of the personal growth method. Frequent personal conferences with their Scoutmaster help each Scout to determine their growth toward Scouting’s aims." Perhaps method should be Daily Good Turn ... or ... Community Service ... Leadership Development – The Scouting program encourages Scouts to learn and practice leadership skills. Every Scout has the opportunity to participate in both shared and total leadership situations. Understanding the concepts of leadership and becoming a servant leader helps a Scout accept the leadership role of others and guides them towards participating citizenship and character development. Perhaps method should be related to Scouts leading Scouts. Or Assigned Responsibilities.

LOL ... drawmanine ... good story I brought dramamine and debated on taking it. I did not. Staff thought I was getting sick because I kept falling asleep on the boat ride out to a dive. They said it was a symptom of sea sickness. ... not for me ... I love being in rough water and have been on rough water after many times ... I love being on the water. ... I was just extremely comfortable with cool temps and a cool breeze ... and after little sleep in a tent at 90+F with 80F dew point ... the waves were rocking me to sleep like a baby.

I was hoping our scouts could earn one of the Lewis and Clark awards. I'm not sure it's the same thing you are talking about, but it is a bragging rights award. https://lewisandclark.org/scouts/ I've seen others, but extremely few of our scouts have earned anything like this. Usually it was because they participated in a special (not-BSA national) HA program.

I accept your analysis. I'm just surprised at the conclusion. It's not parallel to the earlier discussion of proceeds from LC camp sales. . The $850m (or whatever the number is) ... isn't really $850m equally shared. The LCs funding via camp sales would then have the camp sales proceeds split by those who were in that LC. So, if a camp was sold for $5m and there were 100 victims in that council, then the $5m (after settlement percent and expenses) would become $50,000 (minus settlement percent and expenses) for each of the 100 victims. ... Heck, imaging trying to figure out which admin expenses were applied to that camp sale? So, it was earlier asserted the camp sales targeted specific injuries. There is nothing more specific than awards to specific victims. I'm not sure how that would feed back to a general trust if camp sales are not assigned to the general trust. Costs to do the lawsuit could be paid by the settlement, but assigning the award to a general trust does not seem parallel to assigning camp sales to those in the owning camp's LC. Perhaps I misunderstood something earlier.

Absolutely ... not knocking lawyers but thinking about costs to resolve the mess. Subtract 30% percent taken off the top for winning a settlement Subtract expenses to get settlement Subtract trustee manage trust ... Subtract cost to assign point value / deal with case specifics, ( $500 ?? per hour ... 5 or 10 hours each) Subtract victim's lawyer's cut Settlement or no settlement. Chap 11 or Chap 7 ... I just don't see any path forward where victim's get significant cash from BSA / LCs. The only good is moving this forward to the next step. ... And I just remember that all money in the settlement is not equal. It was earlier asserted that LC funds contributed by camp sales target the victims that were in that LC. Imagine trying to figure out who was in the LC. Or if the scout in another LC camped at that camp? Or was that LC really part of the other LC at that time?

Interested to learn more. BSA will be coming out of bankruptcy. So BSA will not be the old BSA and not subject to previous debt / lawsuit claims. So, I thought it would come from the trust. But LCs are not going thru bankruptcy and (here's my confusion) ... only getting a settlement / protection for abuse? I'm not even sure how that happens structurally. LCs will be the same company as before, but they are "protected parties". Somehow they share a protection from BSA's bankruptcy / settlement. So the question is can previous abuse / cases somehow get around the protection? Approach from a different view / different concept. Or perhaps currently time-barred SOLs ... if the SOL is extended ... then can get past settlement protection because they were not part of the settlement.

BSA has been taking knocks for 20 years. Probably longer. ... Perhaps we should focus on the small parts. What brought us to scouting? What do we really enjoy? Leave the muck behind. BSA's future is solid with the ideas and methods and values that can't be beat. Get youth together. Get them outside. Do things new that stretches their comfort zone. (and as a bit of bragging rights) Hike. Bike. Canoe. Explore nature. Build friendships. Then as part of that, naturally learning leadership and independence ... Ya can't beat that. That's scouting. It's different than sports and academics. It's much more dynamic and in areas not touched by sports or athletics.

Keep it clean and neat. Beyond that, there is an official endorsed uniform. ... BUT ... don't stress on it and don't be the guy enforcing it on others. Sure, we want to follow BSA's unforming guide. Beyond that, does it motivate or make the scouts proud? Inspire discussions, etc. If so ... and it looks clean and neat, fine.

Probably re-hashing a really old argument yet another time. ... I agree that we don't need to keep re-imaging BSA and the programs. I would say though that I disagree on the strengths. I feel like a church member who still has faith, but is now questioning one of the long-promised values. Leadership. I just don't think troops teach it well. I question focusing on leadership. I question encouraging adults to teach leadership. Scouts will learn leadership naturally by trying to get their scouts out doing things. Be active, etc. I never wanted my scouts to be in scouting because of "leadership". Sure it might become a side benefit. I wanted them in it to do things I would not do with them on my own. Or skills I did not have at that time. ... To also build life-long friendships. To get experiences. To be more independent of me. But, "leadership". I'm not sure I would join BSA to get my kid to learn leadership.

My legs suffered from the no-see-ums bites for weeks The sargassum was gross and smelled. It was an incredible experience though.

Getting the bankruptcy and other bad news behind BSA is the biggest thing they can do to improve membership. BSA needs to get the 20 years of bad press behind itself. ... Then, give it a few years. ... So yeah, 2024 at earliest.

That's for the BSA trust. If states re-open elapsed SOLs, victims can still insurance companies for a claim outside any standing trust. I'm just not sure how a "settlement" can block insurance company future liability. If re-opened, would previously blocked victims now be open submitting a claim?

@johnsch322 @CynicalScouter ... I really appreciate the last several posts. Kudos and thank you for the thought and time you put into it. I learned alot.

... thought I had commented ... This is why I could see the LC / insurance settlement being more difficult. LC/insurance can be protected if they participate. But there will probably still a channel for existing and new parties to sue even after the settlement. I'll be extremely interested to learn if the US trustee was right that such settlements might not even be legal.

Perhaps I'm forgetting some previous answer. This overlaps with how LCs can settle. I don't understand it. BSA can settle because they are going thru bankruptcy and that ends past liabilities (usually). But LCs and insurance companies are not going bankrupt. There is no class action. So, I'm really not sure how insurance companies (or LCs) can settle. What prevents a state AG or a victim or a victim claim group suing in a state changes SOLs (first time or a second time SOL change). ... Does this need to be first certified on a larger class action basis? It's probably already been said a few times in these threads. I am having trouble following how the case might unfold ... beyond it's a huge mess.

BSA has to hand over evidence. Physical and computer files. BUT, who does the leg work when the data is incomplete? Who hunts for yet more evidence? That seems to be on the side driving the lawsuit. So if the data is incomplete, I really can't blame BSA for that. Most organizations probably have poor membership records from 10, 20 years ago. Definitely from 40 years ago.

Me too. I have no magical hat either. BUT, it seems like we are in for some type of mapping / tracking of insurer paid versus victim was in which org and when. Same reasoning as property sales from a LC would get allocated to a specific set of scouts that was victimized from that area and not for all 84,000 scouts in the case. ... Some policies will have limits. Some won't have umbrella coverage for these cases. I'm sure will be pooled as similar coverage. Is the real question ... is there one or two major insurers for this whole thing? Is it really just Chubb and (???) for most of BSA and the LCs? Or are there other insurers involved. Are there different COIs involved? The 1970 COI has no limit versus 1980s has a limit per case and the 1990s has a overall limit per policy? It seems like a mess to litigate.

I've tried and deleted my writing multiple times. I'm trying to ask how the insurance portion will go. I just don't think it will be simple at all. The BSA bankruptcy may be the easy part compared to the insurance case. Seriously, is there a projected insurance path? Settlement (if even possible to settle) ... or will it be a gut-wrenching case-by-case battle over years. For 84,000 cases. Prove the right council / CO. Apply the right state laws based on the time. Finding / proving the insurance company. Finding / applying the COI details. Is there even a way to get 30 year old COIs? Or even just tracking down who insured who 30 years ago? And then, who re-insured who? ... Was the incident already paid? Blocked by liability limits? Liability coverage not provided? ... State XX had / has different insurnace laws. So ... Settlement? Insurance funding a trust. Claims from the trust blocking future claims? Even that is a logistical nightmare to apply who's insurance company company pays who. And, can insurance companies even settle without first getting some type of class-action protection to cover all future claims? Case-by-case? Prove we insured them. Prove that scout was in that council / charter org. Prove the dates. Prove the injury. ... etc, etc, etc. Insurance companies have deep pockets to pay claims ... but the same deep pockets might be best used to pay lawyers.

BSA is trying to stay in business. I'm disgusted at the costs, but I really can't blame BSA. It's the cost of our legal system. ... The only way to stop BSA's legal expenses is to reach an agreement.

I absolutely agree. People get weird when money is involved. We never required fundraising. We did incentivized it. We'd spend about $200 to $300 on prizes for fundraising. Amazing how much kids sell to get a $40 big prize or a $10 Frisbee or $10 flashlight. But, that was our solution. It worked for us. Might not work for others. Ya know, the real interesting thing about scouting is ... it doesn't have to cost alot. If your CO has a fire-ring, the pack can go-far with marshmellows and field games.

Managing 84,000 claims. Fighting with insurance if they were real or not. Establishing injury calculations. Removing duplicates. Managing allocations as dollars come in. (... These $$$ are from camp $$$ which covers these 311 claimants with this finding of injury... Sending funds (to victim or lawyer ... confirming both lawyers and victims really got their funds ... ... oh wait ... that camp is across state boundaries ... and in another council ... what years was that and is it during a liability window ... ) ... Billing rates starting at $300+. Often $500+. Sometimes $1500. ... Allocating profit share off the top. ... 75% gone ...

I was a pack committee chair at least 15 years. I'd used fundraising to subsidize cub registration. When my first son started as a Tiger cub, the BSA registration charge was nominal. $15? The rest of the money was for awards, program, food, entertainment, etc, etc. "I think" our annual budget was about $150 to $200. The budget was funded between dues and wreath sales. We charged $50 dues. We often profitted $7500 from our wreath sales and used it to make a good pack program. ... If I were dealing with this today ... I'd want to keep the pack dues manageable, $50 to $75. Under $100 if I could. ... THEN ... change the budget. Gear up fundraising Recognize current year fundraising pays the next year registration Current year program money is really previous year surplus minus reserve (next year registration and safety net) AND ... Keep pack t-shirt (great way to build pack identity ... was $10 to $12 cost per cub). Ditch buying each cub a book (often they went unused). Keep the camps. Do more outside. Reduce paid events / entertainment Leverage more "free" stuff. County / state park programs. City programs. Avoid buying 25 pizzas. Prefer "POT LUCK" events ... if possible.