fred8033

Agreed and extended. #1 It's also to encourage scouting and discourage claiming family vacations to complete requirements. This is a continual battle in scouting ... often with the parents chasing requirements. ... Also, proper supervision? Proper execution? (scouts leading, not adults, etc). So for your example, yes it's okay to have two or three dads with their sons doing a special campout to complete the requirements as long as the scouts talk to their merit badge counselor and/or scoutmaster to make it a designated scouting activity; with a strong preference to get the approval before the event. IMHO, the merit badge counselor would be primary as the MBC signs off on the requirement / expectations. If I was the MBC, it would be the that the scouts make the plans and are the driving force in the event; that the activity was more scout-like and less vacation / resort like. ... On the flip side, the scoutmaster can approve it as a "scouting activity". It just gets muddied then as the scout confirmed with the scoutmaster, but the MBC might not accept the event as completing the requirement for some other reason. #2 One final note ... BSA requirements are legalistic because everyone is always gaming the system, but our working with scouts is NOT to be legalistic. We help the scouts. We encourage, guide and inspire the scouts. We do have lots of flexibility so that we can encourage, guide and inspire. ... In this case, the scoutmaster / MBC can wave their magic wand and say it's a designated scout activity. ... In this case, it's a kind heart that would be talking with the scout to see if a different path exists to complete the requirements.

Dead on right.

Correct. Resentment might be workable (even though it's very, very real and alive). The real issue is BSA and GSA are only similar in name; not much else. Might as well say BSA should merge with 4H or Civil Air Patrol or Boys and Girl Clubs or etc, etc, etc.

Yep. Almost always lame. Good maybe for 1st year troop scouts. Otherwise only good is getting together and seeing other scouts / adults. The actual event itself is almost always has zero or often less than zero value. Love that answer. IMHO, adventure makes scouting fun and valuable.

Our critiques were done at the annual planning event. Key to that was to keep the other adults out of it ... ideally well away. ... Scouts will shut down giving way to adults. ... IMHO ... it's not just an issue during critiques. It's for how the whole troop runs. The scouts need confidence that they own and run the troop; with friendly safe guidance by their SM. Scouts that don't speak up is often a reflection of other issues. Best thing to do is only have the scoutmaster involved during the planning and reviews. The challenge is getting the other adults to trust the SM and stay out of it.

Don't see this as bad. See if there is an option to provide a great experience for the few remaining scouts for the time they have left. See if there are any options like being a patrol under another troop. A key is don't take this as a big negative statement for you and yours. There is a magical mix in scouts. People. Recruiting. Experiences. When things shift, it can kill troops. The key is you and your troop provide great experiences for the scouts you have. Then, when they are gone, they are gone. It's okay to close down. You have not failed.

Are the scouts in the patrol strong friends? Patrol communication happens naturally when it's friends. They find solutions and make it work. Even if there are just four or five that are good friends, they find ways to communicate and bring the new members in. Scouts that are not friends can't be forced to communicate. In those cases, one or two scouts get frustrated trying to communicate and might give up. Then, the parents drive involvement. ... so ... Are these scouts friends? Do they naturally reach out to each other? OR, are they assigned to their patrol and only chat during scheduled patrol activities. IMHO, solve the communication by growing the patrol connections.

Let your scouts decide. ... Trust your scouts ... and don't think you can control them. They will communicate how they want. Plus, their choosing how to communicate is part of their team forming and storming. It's what we really want out of our scouts: their solving and owning their activities. As unit leaders, the question is how much do we communicate to the parents. A troop schedule with mtgs, events and activities? Costs? Other?

That's the key phrase. I'm a stickler for YP and G2SS. Fundraising? Much less so. In my 15+ years as a unit leader, we never filled out the fundraiser application for our unit sales (not popcorn).

Apologist? Yes for our parents, police, schools, churches, society, and many, many youth organizations that repeatedly failed children for decades. Uniquely calling BSA out on this is wrong.

Not reasonable. #1 When I need to advise someone to do something really hard, it's a direct discussion. I don't write a memo to them advising them. #2 The IVF files are documentation WHY the person should not be registered; not a step by step process record of everything that happened. #3 The fact that so so so many of the files do have police records are strong evidence that the right thing did happen. ***** After I posted yesterday ... I another few files. ... again alphabetical starting from Z. ... Just a few ... I found this one 1978-04-19 ... File had court transcript ... Volunteer pleaded guilty. Judge interviewed man's wife who said he was a good man. Judge had letters from man's company that said he was well employed and a good employee. Judge recognized man was financially supporting his young kids and wife. Based on good character testimony, the man was sentenced to probation and suspension of a ten year jail term. He did have to pay a $180 dollar court cost fine. ... That was the society at this time.

LA Times shows timeline of BSA starting at least in 1972 screening leaders. More over the next decades. Specific files .... Clicking in alphabetical order ... did not notice until later reverse alphabetical ... using LA Times DB ... search started reverse alphabetical on it's own ... probably from when I was reading the files years ago. This is not picking and choosing. This is in sequence without skipping entries. I am not posting the names involved. 1987-06-16 - Documents convicted felonies 1966-09-13 - Arrested 7/27/66 1987-11-15 - Indicted 11/10/87 on 3 counts 1986-12-19 - Entered guity plea - Newspaper documentation 1991-02-25 - Teacher indicted 1991-10-03 - Registration refused after documentation of previous abuse 1979-02-05 ... Documents parents decided to not pursue charge. ... BSA records removing and blocking future registration The one that really reflects the attitude at the time. 1989-02-08 ... Memo from county DA documents parents decided to not pursue charges as long as the scout leader resigns and enters counseling. Perpetrator was interviewed in the county district attorney's offices. Police special investigators involved and had evidence. Person confessed he was guilty. District attorney decided to not pursue charges. If I keep going thru more than the eight, I suspect a similar pattern will be shown.

You just indicted pretty much all of society. Mandatory reporting is discussed as it defines if there was a legal shortcoming to how things were handled; defining an explicit negligence; not just a idealistic negligence. Mandatory reporting laws have drastically changed over the years. Often decade by decade. Offense by offense.

Yep. And I strongly suspect the first officials notified were either the principal or the psychologist. The teacher would have been in big trouble if a police car showed up at school without the administration knowing first.

People are selectively choosing facts and interpretations. Even the earlier posted 1981 letter shows valid concerns about where record are kept and privacy. Embarrassment is not labeled as whose. Victims? The family? The community? This is how all of society viewed CSA in the 1980s. Criticizing for emphasizing centralization of records? Would the preference instead be 400+ building offices keeping the files in some random person's desk drawer or book shelf? That would have been highly unprofessional and not taking it seriously ... but at least it would have avoided the looting of BSA. When people criticize BSA on CSA, I really don't think they are being intellectually honest.

Then you have not read many or your are being disingenuous. The files contain many including police reports and court proceedings.

That is an overly simplistic statement. About what? Child Abuse in 1970s was about Battered Child Syndrome; CSA was not the focus until 1990s. Teachers were looking for bruises and physical signs of abuse. To whom? School administration is a government entity hired and paid for by the tax payer. Half the states.

That was the standard of practice across all organizations I knew. I'm sure teachers even in the 1990s were told to first talk to the principal before calling authorities to report abuse.

82,000 is a paperwork number and still an unproven number. That is the number of claims submitted, but was a surprise number by everyone from all sides. We will never really know the real number Since 1960s, BSA has had tens of millions of youth members. I would not be surprised if 100 million plus. So, is it a high level or not. And then compare it to number of youth benefiting from scouting. If we argue on emotions, any single injury is bad. Period. If we argue on numbers, then there is a real question if BSA better or worse than other organizations.

@Oboman ... Your response is the common sense and very basic. I have no issues with what you wrote. You also missed many really good supporting arguments such as BSA did way more to keep out abusers (i.e. ineligible volunteer files) than many organizations including schools and other youth programs. And, that the volunteer files documented case after case being handled correctly. ... The problem is the legal interpretation. Common sense is not legal in court. This case was 100% about deep pockets. Some people will absolutely get rich from this. Some lives will be changed. .... It just won't be the victims.

Don't use fundraising as a decision factor. It's noise; annoying yes, but still noise. Key factors are fun and involvement and a healthy environment.

Gotta love BSA ... Says different here. I assume it is out of date. https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/faqs/#:~:text=Youth can join a Scout,not yet 18 years old. Also gotta love legalistic wording that is clear as mud. ... "after March 1" ... So a kid could register April 1st of 4th grade, then when they enter 5th grade they can move to a troop ? I doubt it's the intention, but it's the wording. It might have been better to say completed 5th grade or in the last three months of fifth grade.

Your scout's experience comes first. Period. ... I am sad that my kids are grown. The truth is the time passes too quick. Their scouting careers are very, very short. Get your kid into a great scouting experience now. AND, it is 100% okay to switch packs and then just sit back and enjoy scouting from the shadows. Volunteer now and then as you can, but let others take the lead as you watch your kid grow.

These numbers are painful to me. A few decades ago, Cub Scouts existed as a place for kids who want to be like their big brothers in troops; a waiting ground until they could do the big boy activities. Now, it's the main membership. I really question it's value. I really do. ... The massive drop off in Cub numbers before joining troops makes me think others question the value too. ... Plus, I think there are other stronger little kid programs out there that are easier to do. Scouting shines in troops and getting older kids in the outdoors camping, facing challenges, and having adventures. I really, really, really question scouting's value when the emphasis is as a younger kids program. It just does not shine the same way. I always envisioned Scouting as an affordable version of Outward Bound. "Outward Bound USA is the leading provider of outdoor education programs that allow young people to explore their personal potential, since 1962. From expeditions in some of the most remote locations in the U.S. to programs in local schools and neighborhoods, young people nationwide are cultivating a passion for learning, and discovering greater success in school, work and life." https://outwardbound.org/ Scouting has a major branding issue and has lost it's focus. It's not about membership or lost values. It's about the value of the program. As scouting exists now, I really question the future of scouting. Sadly, society really has a real need for a program like scouting "WAS". Every day, I see young men that are lost and lacking confidence. I see youth that would benefit from outdoor challenges; to know they are capable on their own.

Can't ignore the challenge of two years of lawsuit infomercials.