fred8033

CSA is the bankruptcy driver, but I doubt BSA can limit background checks to that. BSA needs to look for criminal records that are kept at national, state and county levels. You also need to handle identity confirmation. This is not a minor challenge. Applications arrive at the registration office from online or via paper. They don't get to see a drivers license or identity card. This was a big expensive challenge in the 1980s. Each decade has introduced improvements. It's much easier now, but it's still not cheap. It costs money especially as you multiple the number by hundreds of thousands of registered adult volunteers.

I love that answer. Perhaps it would fit nicely with an OA conclave. WB recipients could be recognized.

Interesting ... Your comment made me search and read. The $5 sounds right for the search of the national sex offender database. Probably does not include identity verification, county(plural??) criminal checks, state criminal checks, national criminal checks, etc. Our school district charges volunteers $11 approx for their background checks. Add cost on top of that to maintain the background check system, paperwork, making sure you have signatures with permission to do the background check, etc. I'd imagine BSA can't administer the background check system for less than $20 per person per year. ... I'm just guessing. I'm just saying that there is real cost. Interesting topic.

The words don't support your interpretation. The first sentence is talking about an activity ... singular ... a camp out, a trip, a high adventure .... Any activity that is 72 hours or more. The second sentence ... "not consecutive" ... exists so that adults don't game the system and leave the camp for two days and then return. If the adult comes and goes from the activity, it's the cumulative time. I've seen zero people apply this across separate different camp outs. I've seen zero people that include each troop meeting to this. This only applies activities that are at least 72 hours ... example leave 6pm Thursday and return after 6pm Sunday. If we were to add up multiple activities, it would not say "at the activity for 72 total hours". It would say refer to multiple activities or over the course of a year or ... something. Instead the sentence refers fully to "at the activity".

100% agreed. Except I'm more on the mode of 30 to 60 seconds planned with the knowledge that people being told 30 seconds will take two minutes. One of my biggest COH regrets was allowing a person five minutes at our COH thinking they would be done in 3 or 4. Then, they took 25 to 30 minutes. NOW, I would absolutely pulled them when they went over the time I gave. Then, I did not know better. I thought they knew what they were doing.

Yeah. I'm a HUGE BELIEVER in scouting is fun. Hanging with long-term friends. Adventures. Learning things you would not see otherwise. ... It's why I'm so so disappointed in the MB program. I can way more easily accept cooking as a MB than I can several of the others. All my sons have had adventures they will never forget. Sadly, many of the MBs were just a waste and a poor rehash of school. Perhaps, I'd accept the MB program way more if the program was more action oriented. Personally, I wish my sons never saw a MB fill-in-the-blank worksheet. A complete excitement killer.

4 hours ago, qwazse said: Then the worst thing litigants could do for our nation's youth is to discourage duly diligent CO's from engaging with them. It's not blaming survivors. It's a statement about society. Youth need somewhere to spend their time. Youth need opportunities to learn values, responsibility, skills, etc. Scouting has had 100+ million youth. The vast majority have benefited. The statement reflects the belief that a good portion of youth in scouting will be worse off. ... I know for one of my sons that would easily be true. Without the weekends camping, he would have spent more time with his friends that drank, smoked and worse. I'm glad scouting was there to provide an escape to build friendships with kids who did not have those issues. I'd draw a similar analysis from high school sports. I know multiple youth by name that have long-term physical damage from football, hockey, etc. Concussions. Broken vertebrae. Paralysis. ... Society generally beliefs youth sports are a large net positive. I'd argue the same is true for scouts ... if we can get past the lame parts.

You may have had due diligence, but prove it. Most of these incidents are from 1980s or earlier. That's effectively 40+ years. The average CO/COR/elder was probably 50+. So, we need to pull these CO/COR/elders out of the nursing home or the grave to testify. Good luck finding the CO records or proof. Zero COs have a way to prove they exercised due diligence or worked hard to keep their scouts safe. Even then, the reality is a perpetrator is not easily identifiable in-advance.

I had long talks with our pastor about that. ... Is scouting core to the CO purpose and would be significantly less without it. Almost always the answer is NO. For our CO church, the church has it's own long standing youth group and it's own long-standing faith formation program. Even more, scouting faith components are generic and not well aligned with the CO. i.e. the church can't use scouting to pass on their personal beliefs and values. So if it's not core, the church members don't invest the time and money to oversee and run the program. That's when negligence and liability become an issue.

Agreed. If the program ever stabalizes (law suits, finances, membership, woke, etc) ... the MB program will need to be re-organized. In 2022, 14 of the 21 Eagle MBs will be explicitly required. Leaving 7 to be chosen by the scout. Of course the scout can always do more, but I'd really like to see the MB program truely matching the advertisement to explore and discover new skills and new careers. Too much feels like a weak immitation of school. Even the communication MB. Instead of the communication MB, couldn't we have a Life Rank requirement to design and MC a troop COH. Isn't the commnication MB requirement to teach a skill overlapping with previously emphasized EDGE requirements. ... I don't mean to knock every MB, but we have too much school in scouting and too little explore, discover and have adventures.

"When I said ... the pack bus the advancements", I was referring to this pack's decision. IMHO, if the person is a member of the pack, the pack should not be asking the question as they don't for other members. Treat the dues / fundraising as a membership question, but not a does the pack buy advancements ... unless as you assert ... the pack asks all members to buy their advancements. Pay as you go ... I really like the idea if you can make it work. It is much more work for the treasurer and the pack leaders, but a nice model. I like it because some parents chase bling way out of balance of others. Others just want to have their kids active. It's hard to balance things. Our pack at one time had pack buying rank and the parents buy the others awards.

I was just saying ... don't mix involvement in fundraiser with buying advancement items. The real test is: are they a member of the pack? If yes, the pack buys the advancements ... UNLESS you charge back to each scout their advancement tokens. I've only see that for EXTRA tokens. One pack did it for belt loops. Pack bought rank and core advancement. Other things the pack expected families to purchase as there would always be one or two families running up the costs. The whole idea of fundraisers is to benefit the organization and the organization's goals; not just those raising the funds. ... Not everyone will be as committed as others ... you will always have some doing more ... paying more ... covering more costs ... etc .... Sales are a great for a scout to pay his own way. So is mowing yards. Doing chores for neighbors. etc. ... Likewise, it is 100% acceptable for a pack to help scouts sell products that they then get the income to pay their way thru scouting. ... Just don't call it fundraiser. Don't do it in the non-profit's name. Absolutely don't call it tax deduction. What our troop did ... years ago ... we charged $75 dues. We gave 15% of the profit back to the scout. Wreaths were 50% profit. If the scout sold $1000 in wreaths, that paid for his dues. Troop got $425 to help everyone. Scout got $75 to pay dues. Fundraiser workers are often paid as an incentive to raise more for the non-profit. That is acceptable. BUT if 100% is going to the scout, it's not a fundraiser. It's private benefit in the name of a non-profit. ... this forum has been thru this debate many times.

I really find this the most interesting development. City was sued City paid. Paid now because suits against the COs / LCs are not bankruptcy blocked. Shows the deepest possible pockets. Cities, insurers and large institutions. Shows not all paths are blocked now. Why are COs and LCs not being sued? They are not blocked by the bankruptcy case. Seems like BSA bankruptcy is noise blocking progress getting money for victims.

Doesn't it depend on the incorporation of the fire department. Did the city run the fire department? Provide training? Own the building? Provide oversight? ... That's the whole volunteer scouter issue. BSA liable for volunteer actions. If a city fire department failed to oversee a scouting unit, then the city should be liable for damages. I'm also betting there is a paid staffer somewhere in the volunteer fire department chain. Even if paid a token amount. Similar can be argued for elementary school chartered packs. Or even for schools that allowed recruitment in the elementary school classes. They endorsed scouting without any oversight.

Pack fundraisers are to help everyone in the pack. You can give them 20% (or similar) of their sales as an incentive, but the fundraiser's whole purpose is to reduce the cost for everyone doing work in the pack. The whole fundraiser / dues / cost is something that's been discussed ad nauseum. Key point is non-profit fundraising serves the purpose of the non-profit. Individual sales can benefit individual, but then there is a different question. Generally, pack sales are usually smaller than IRS noise level. I mention as charge dues is fine. But don't consider fundraiser sales as a plus/minus on whether to buy awards.

Extreme examples are often useful in debates. Many view him has an upstander. Others don't. But, I can accept your point. It's too inflammatory example for now. ... It's just the one I was reading about in the news today. ... It came to mind because he clearly stood up for what he believed was the right thing to do. He did not want to be the guy sitting 20 miles away doing nothing but watch a city burn. ... but you are right ... probably too inflammatory for now. ... I'll remove that sentence.

I'm familiar with the word. It's a relatively new word introduced as many words are by inverting another word; bystander. The idea / concept is great. We want our scouts to have backbone to confront wrong. My issue is it started as a linguistic play-on-words and smells like a design-by-committee word. Too forced. Like Unobtanium from Avatar. Plus, I question whether it's a real opposite of bystander. A bystander is a person who does nothing when faced with a traffic accident; a crime; a wrong or a crime. We're often talking about dangerous situations. Or are we talking more about playing off the word "upstanding"; as an upstanding citizen.. ... At that point, it smells of PC. ... What is an upstanding citizen? It's in the eyes of the beholder. I like the idea. I just have contempt for the word.

All things aside ... just a verbage issue ... the term Upstander is junk. Shakespeare would weep. ... It sounds like a committee met repeatedly to pick a rallying word, but had to pick something. So, they chose upstander.

#1 Purpose of MBs ??? ... Going tangential. Not directly on this MB. I agree with "...there is a ton..." ... I fear this is yet another where BSA does a light weight, cheap, shallow introduction to a topic done much better in school and church. ... Scouting has historically been reactionary to society trends. Think STEM. Think the 1970s new scouting program that moved away from outdoors. At this point, I'm a bit lost on purposes of rank requirements versus MBs. I used to think MBs were about either skills development or career exploration. Now, MBs seem like a disorganized dumping ground for things we think kids should know. ... If it were for me, scouting should be focused on distinguishing itself by keeping kids moving and doing things they can't get elsewhere ... aka outdoor adventure and physical skills. Hiking. Swimming. Camping ... Welding. Wood working. etc. #2 Synonyms ... About this badge ... Society and Community are synonyms. They mean the same thing. We have two MBs named the same thing.

Ok. Thank you. No need for words such as "If you don't get it, you probably won't." Those words are ugly and mean. I understand your point. It's the personal connection of a heart felt apology. The human expression. ... I know I saw that during our SE's discussion and the discussion that followed between the SE and district leaders / unit leaders / CORs. He expressed everything you could express in a personal, heartfelt apology. It was painful. ... I'm sure other scout leader have experienced similar. In my post ... last night I asked the moderators to remove as it wasn't worth continuing ... it must have been removed after your reading ... my post quoted several articles showing BSA's apology. Here's the one that I thought was most human and not a press conference. https://www.bsarestructuring.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/BSA_An-Open-Letter-to-Victims.pdf I'm just not sure what the next level of apology is. IMHO, ... sometimes the hurt is so bad, that you can't move past an apology. You can hear the words, but the relationship can't be healed. I fear this is one of those situations. The pain. The damage. The tortured emotions. The broken trust. People will try to apologize, but it's too late. ... Like a marriage where one partner does something so horrible that the other partner just can't forgive. The partner can apologize continually, daily for years and decades, but the other partner just can't move forward. ... I fear this very similar. I really think we are in this situation. There is no apology to heal CSA.

It is a gambling game. I've read on SOLs to try to understand reasoning and laws. Some will open. Others, maybe in the longer term. Some will never open. Pennsylvania? ... Penn State abuse cases. I'm not sure they could honestly re-open SOLs without opening up for Penn State / government liability for most government institutions. I'm not sure the state would want to do that. Utah with LDS? Texas being very conservative? Other states that had open SOLs that expired years ago. Will they want to re-open yet again? I think it's a longer path to re-open SOLs.

I understand and sympathize. "Voluntary" / "involuntary" is who filed the bankruptcy. It says debt can't be paid. It is not an easy or arbitrary business strategy. ... The current mess is a chicken and egg thing. Lawsuits pulled BSA into bankruptcy. Bankruptcy pulled more victims in. It's a mess. The trouble is viewing it as denying a day in court. BSA is speeding into a financial wreck, but others are asking to be heard before the course is changed. It doesn't work that way. The goal is to get cash into a trust for victim's benefit. I'm not sure another six months of spending on a different plan will increase the cash pool or just guarantee a worse wreck.

"I'd be tempted to say then" ... that you also know the other adult lives in the same house and provides common care for the children. Most importantly, the mom knows this and has chosen this. ... Perhaps just ask for a simple handle written note from the mom. I'm flipping back and forth on this one.

I'm not sure that is useful in this specific situation. I'd only ask him if you are asking the other parents. I really seems you need some simple guardianship form signed by the mother indicating she is granting the adult temporary guardianship of the child. There are web sites that can be used. Keep it simple. Most importantly, be open with the mom. You're not a business and you don't have your own lawyers. You are only trying to do right by the child and by the organization. The more I think about this ... I'm betting ... the mom has had to deal with this for other reasons. I'm betting she has had to setup some type of guardianship documents for her partner to use with the child. Ask the mom. Talk to her. An interesting point ... when kids have joined my packs / troops, we never wanted evidence of who was the parent or who was a partner. We never knew if they were the legal guardian or the real parent. ... It was not our business. ... it was more the parents responsibility to name who took care of the kid. ... What we were watching for was that none of the leaders or other parents took up that role. ... We never injected ourselves into the internal family dynamics. I'd be tempted to treat this similar. When the scout joins, have the parents tell you who the guardians are. I fear this is one where the parent asked and now you have more work. My heart goes out to you. A gold star family. They have already lost their dad in service to our country. I'd want to bend over backwards to help them any way I could and to help the kids. ... but do it within the rules of G2SS and your good conscious.

Agreed. I really don't think there is a better side for most victims though. Some yes. Most no.