fred8033

Correct. The charter agreement ... like a franchise agreement ... is not a mutual suicide pact. If one business partner fails, the other has a right to try to continue with the assets they own. If BSA did convert to chapter 7 liquidation and stop operating, ... Finances Dues? Healthier councils if dues kept local? 20,000 scouts at current dues is $1.4m. Event cut in half, that would be significant to the local council budget. Cheaper scouting? Scout stuff / shop is NOT cheap. PDF rank books? 3rd party standard clothing? Intellectual property Would local councils form an association to purchase IP in auction? Ground Round franchisees did this when Ground Round corporate went out of business. Those restaurants continued operation (not sure how long) without the corporate franchisor. Would local councils collectively sue the BSA chapter 7 bankruptcy for damages caused by BSA going out of business ... rebranding, breaking franchise agreement, etc. Only some of the IP has critical value. "Boy Scouts of America" and "Eagle Scout" are the big brands. Some secondary IP such as "tenderfoot", but nothing that can't be refactored, etc. Many of terms are public domain: troop, patrol, etc. ... Seriously ... not many people have strong allegiance to "Arrow of Light" rank or award. If it had to change, the future of scouting would not be significantly damanged. Business infrastructure ... collectively negotiated health care and retirement programs. That could transition though. SIDE COMMENT ... I was wondering about IP and franchisees when franchisor goes out of business. ... National charter ... I know it's honorific, but it is also law. http://www.usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsacharter.asp "Perpetual Existence" - Except as otherwise provided, the corporation has perpetual existence." ... I'm assuming the "except" is refering to acquiring and selling property. Suing and being sued. So, BSA property can be sold, but BSA the company can not go out of existence? How does this affect ... right to sell IP during liquidation? The name "Boy Scouts of America" is immediately of little IP value as it will continue to exist ... or could exist again in the future. Does this allow a future president to re-establish BSA and appointing a new BSA governing body? Imagine a future strong willed president ... a long-term scouter and Eagle scout ... decides we need our youth outside more ... can he simply re-incorporate BSA as it is perpetual existing and he's the executive who can execute the USA laws? BSA "is a body corporate and politic of the District of Columbia" - I really don't understand why the suit simily doesn't sue the US government for negligence. Or sue the District of Columbia. As Purdue Pharma has owner liabilities, it seems this company is not separate from the US government in many ways. Heck, BSA delivered report to Congress (per the same law) and directly put it in the hands of the President every year.

Correct. My understanding is financially and employment wise, there is a clean separation between national employees and council staff. That's been emphasized for 20 years when I talk with the scout shop staff about who they work for. Scout Shop staff = National (product sales). Council staff is local.

You must be in a very small council.

Well said. There are other options though. For example, taking a loan to cover finances / legal costs that reduces the asset liquidation value. ... hmmm ...

... not commenting about TK ... It's not a clear line between passionate and financial motivation. Money can buy emotional involvement. Lots of money can buy strong emotions. The reverse is true too. There are many good well meaning people need strong financial motivation to handle ugly hard situations. My personal tie is a child hood friend. His family had strong career and financial ties to the nuclear power industry. All the way from 7th grade to 12 grade, all we had to do was say anything critical of nuclear power and we could get him upset. I'm not sure he was ever in a nuclear power plant or understood the physics, but we were attacking his family when we criticized. IMHO, it's very similar. ... Lots of money can bring real tears.

Loss of control. Loss of flexibility. I suspect that is the major part. I remember talking with a local long-time professional and discussing a camp property that might be sold. I've only been around for 20 years. She had 40+ years and knew the previous 60 years of transactions. I never knew that councils bought and sold camps over time. We always think of camps as a once in a lifetime asset that can't ever be replaced. ... Some can't ever be. Others, come and go. ... I never realized how many different properties our council had over time. The conversation was based on a local; somewhat under camp that the local city had grown around and was no-longer a quiet isolated camp. IMHO, it would be a great property for that city to buy and make into a large park. BUT, that's me. We do have two local properties that are owned by independent, separate scouting organizations; aka friends-of-camp or Camp #### Scouting Association. The properties are nice and large pieces of land. BUT, there is not that much development. Roads are rough and dirt. One had a small building built by volunteers. Another had a shelter put up. One used a trailer as a camp office. ... Great properties, but they don't get the donations or revenue stream to turn them into first class properties.

We're good. Thank you for the kind response. ... PS - I miss an older co-worker who for years and years ran a word-of-the-day poster.

Wow. If I was his age, cool. Being my age with stiff bones, I'm in pain just watching it.

Is that a red flag? Large national case with representation that can't or won't represent on at the state level? It sort of makes sense. Trying to focus on the larger national case even if they don't have resources to litigate state by state. With how these proceedings are going, victims will be in state court at some point; against the LC and/or the CO. It's interesting that some victims would need to get different representation for the state level.

Please remind everyone that this is a discussion forum. Having a different opinion or having been victimized in the past does not excuse being mean or bullying other people now. I posted a comment and was lambasted for it in a very cruel way. It was 100% inappropriate.

Thank you.

You've probably said before. Are any of the nine also members of the law firms working the case? Are any of the nine TCC members lawyers?

Sounds like a legal mad tweeter ad. #1 It is far from inevitable this will become a chapter 7. The only driving force I see is few interested in true mediation. It really seems many want to drive failure of the bankruptcy proceedings. #2 A BSA bankruptcy czar would not automatically be able to go after LC assets as they are separate companies. A court would need to rule that all these "franchised" You are looking at years of legal cases to make that happen and it is far, far from guaranteed. #3 It is very conceivable that a chapter 7 would result in less money for victims because of the order of debt that is paid.

At least with troops, you usually have a committed SM and others to help keep momentum and quality. Den leaders step up usually with little knowledge of cub scouts and little knowledge of just how much work it is. I'd say 50% of den leaders are in that situation. It's common to the point of being normal. It's why mixed programming does help. In a way ... I think fondly of the 1950s stories I hear where a den mother would be waiting for the den to walk over after school to have a weekly den meeting. Easy timing. Pre-electronics. Den meetings I'm sure had lots of outdoor run-around time. Kids then head home for dinner. Agreed. Younger cubs just don't do as well. Also the maturity these days is different. A ten/eleven year old is not as comfortable outside in nature as a kid from 40 years ago.

Also, not ever den leader is as committed. Not every den stays well structured. Sometimes the pack meetings were the only meaningful content the cubs got over several months. IMHO, it's part of providing a variety of options to help the cub have a good scouting experience. ... but then again ... if it were me ... I'd cut cub scouts down to two years. BUT, that's me ... and a very different topic.

Traditional pack meeting were Sept-May. Summer scouting June, July & Aug. We still had one big pack-level event each month even in the summer. Sometimes one big and one small.

I cringe saying it ... as I like larger BSA troops ... perhaps GSA is the future model. Ditch the charter model. Smaller troops (GSA troop = BSA patrol). BSA directly working with unit leaders. Smaller structures. Community orgs (churches) provide meeting spaces. Local councils provide the bigger camping opportunities with staffed camps. Some really nice benefits. Smaller, more dynamic, fresher units. Less troop infrastructure.

Exactly on target. I'm glad to hear your COR attends to audit the program. But, that's very rare. It's why I don't view the facility use agreement as a band aid though. We need the COs to say they are NOT owning the program so that we start asking ... well who is responsible? One of the problems has been friendly COs signing a document they think is honorific and breaking a chain of responsibility.

It's a hard balance: protecting your kids, but encouraging independence and adventure. ... It's one reason I volunteered as a leader. I could be in the background for my kids and at the same time encouraging their own adventures.

Sympathy. For years, our family spent a lot on camps; exactly as you described. Sometimes four active scouts over three scouting units. Long term ... Those most motivated often can make the biggest difference. ... Volunteer to step up as a fundraising volunteer. ... I've seen scouts earn thousands each year to afford scouting. If this was August, I'd suggest Christmas wreaths and garlands. You can often earn 50% profit and they sell really well. Other times of the year, popcorn. Sadly, "staffed" scouting isn't cheap. I was always thankful when we camped on private property or group camp sites. Those were affordable. Even then, $15 each for food plus gas plus spending money. A cheap weekend of scout camping was easily $100 for our family.

It moved around. For years, it was same as pack meeting night. Other years when we had more money and created a really big special event, it was a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night. My preference ... again mine, no rule ... is to keep a consistent night of the week. People often choose activities that align with a night of the week. If you move nights, you will lose people due to conflicts. BUT, then again ... it's once a year ... be flexible. build consensus. no single right answer exists. ... You can make it 30 or 60 minutes earlier to feed people. ... One point though is that some people will view B&G as a really big event. Others just view it as another cub night.

I'm assuming that will trigger a LC bankruptcy case ... which seems the right way to handle it. Those 20 get a claim against BSA's bankruptcy and the future local LCs bankruptcy. It seems the righ way to handle it.

January 3rd 2022 ... Welcome to year bankruptcy year four ... I started discussing bankruptcy rumors in 2019 to handle CSA, GSA etc suits. If counted from when bankruptcy was filed, we'll be starting year three in February ... BSA filed Feb 2020.

My apologies. I thought I was clear. I did not mean to trigger a button. ... My point was we (more than just your CO ... but I'd expect your diocese too) are in for long-term re-charter issues. Before bankruptcy, my COs (and others I'd expect) signed the recharter agreement but never really comfortable with it. They signed to help scouts. ... That's the past though. We are now past a transition point. COs will want the recharter agreement words to match what they are doing. Or more correctly 100% question why they are signing a charter when all they are doing is providing a place for scouts (a community group) to meet. This has been debated over and over. We can all feel righteous indignation, but it's not that simple. Past is never pretty and rarely holds up to today's judgement. I view this as a judgement of almost all organizations in the past. Blame goes far and wide.

A successful BSA bankruptcy plan will not solve re-chartering concerns. The cat is out of the bag. COs are questioning the mismatch between signed documents and the mostly independent scouting programs happening in their building. "If I were the business administrator", I'd want the signed words to match intent and reality. Anything else is negligent; morally and legally. I hope your troop's situation goes well. Hopefully a friendly smile and constructive thinking will smooth the future.