fred8033

I agree. Too long. Too adult intensive. Too early.

Venturing has always been on life support. Fits and starts with sputtering along until the unit dies for some reason. The fact is: venturing is not a stable long-term program. Girls in troops solves much of the venturing problem. IMHO, something should be put-in-place for the 18 to 21 year old scouts. Perhaps camp volunteers or local scouting volunteers. Pull them out of units into the next volunteering level to see a broader picture. ... I'm not sure ... Just saying ... venturing has been problematic for as long as I've seen it.

The numbers you showed are inspiring in my mind. This is during COVID ... and a bankruptcy ... and political turmoil. IMHO, it shows strong promise for the future IF and WHEN we can get past current distracting challenges.

@Eagle94-A1 had a good response ... Look at the last 20 years. The rank requirements have more than doubled in words. Maybe triple. ... IMHO, split the words. Keep a simple statement for the scout to evaluate what the rank requirements are. Put in the adult leader "<year> requirements" book the details that a good program would teach. Leave the painfully long wording for the adults to think about what they can do better. Let the scout scout focus on a simple achievable program.

... dang ... I'll go down every tangent that is opened to me. ... Troops push hard for first class first year because they are taught that ... and because they need to compete with the other troops in the same city. Parents want Eagle scouts. Troop shopping provides the wrong incentive to troops that dements the program. If you want your troop to thrive over the years and there is more than one troop near by, you better push everyone to advance.

I've got a lot to learn. How would an excess insurance company settle / pay out after the covered party settles and/or the primary insurance company settles. Don't those earlier settlements define the value of the damage? Wouldn't the excess insurance only pay out the settlement amount that the insured or primary insurance can't pay?

I fully agree ... for the reasons you state and more reasons; a broad settlement just seems too imbalanced in many, many ways. We might have drastically different interpretations of the past, but I agree with this assertion.

The really hard ones are the scouts that want to get something out of the MB topic and are less concerned with the badge. IMHO, those are the ones that we really should be targeting. A good example was my son wanted to learn more about computer security, maintenance, etc . It was so painful, "make sure you fill out" work book references all the time, etc. It provided ZERO value to him. Sure he got the badge. BUT, it turned him off on that pursuit and really poisoned the MB perception. A good example is horsemanship MB. Almost every scout that signed up for horsemanship just wanted to be around horses. Almost always turned out well even though they ended shoveling a lot of ... stuff. Always great stories after ... including their tent-mate making them keep their shoes outside the tent.

Thank you for the link. I was amazed at the typos and the lack of city, state on COs preventing checking if basic data is right. Example ... I was looking at churches named after saints in the doc. There are many that I know can't exist because of the naming. Maybe because my home church was named uniquely that I notice this. If it listed city and state, at least we could look for a name that is similar. Using naming (with minor corrections), a fair number just can't exist.

I absolutely agree and this thread consolidates comments share repeatedly on this board. Example ... I often wonder about the good and bad of the MB program. I'd almost rather see a program where if you go on the troop canoe trip for 25+ miles (with a bit of coaching and skill dev) the scout gets the Canoeing MB. It does not mean you need MB workbooks or sit-down class rooms. The only sit down should be in the canoe with the SM in the next canoe coaching the scouts on what a J stroke is and sneaking in terms for the scout to learn. ... Same with camping. If the scout camps with the troop at summer camp and enough other camps, the SM and other leaders should be able to sneak in the skills and get the scout the MB. The scout should be able to also ask what he needs to do to earn the badge. BUT, it should also be given when the requirements are complete ... even if the scout doesn't know it. That way ... the scout can focus on the fun and activity without tracking the ugly details. A little of both with the option for either is a nice thing.

"Historic Trails Award" is the one I always wanted to earn.

I realize you are not necessarily advocating for no BSA. I question the ability to value "scouting" without effectively the same infrastructure that BSA provides. National camps? Advancement program? Structure? Consolidated organization providing background checks? Some people call it "membership" ? Others would call it an annual subscription fee. ... I've already alluded to a question of whether chapter 7 is really feasible with a national charter. (can liquidate, but not really cease to exist long term without a change in law). I've questioned in the past. I question if chap 7 provides significantly more funds to victims than chapter 11. I doubt scouting can exist without a similar national level org. (national camps, standards, training, background checks, etc ... perhaps it can be a much more light weight org) ... I question if chap 7 is feasible with a congressional chapter (can liquidate, but not long term not exist ... requires law change). The question is really the BSA business practices / models. Can bankruptcy force a bigger business model change. More than pushing YP changes. Additionally push business model changes. But then again, what changes ... beyond a more open business model with better published GAAP data. ... But then again, this is 100% true for a large number of non-profits.

Agreed. You would need to find council training chair to get their signature. Or talk with your registrar. I really got to know our council registrars really well. It was key to making my life easier. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/511-057_WB.pdf?_gl=1*1kkbx6w*_ga*MTQwNDgxODI5OC4xNTc5ODk2MDEz*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTY0NDkzNTAyNC40Mi4xLjE2NDQ5MzUzOTkuNTc.&_ga=2.22106297.30730887.1644935025-1404818298.1579896013

Using this thread out of respect for our moderators. Looked for updates this morning and saw ... @MYCVAStory postd: "TCC will be holding a Town Hall on Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8 pm (Eastern) to discuss the latest ..." I had a feeling that I'm in an episode of Twight Zone and Rod Sterling was talking. It's Monday. That's Thursday. ... It's why bankruptcy takes so long? Feb 18, 2020 -- BSA filed bankruptcy Feb 14, 2022 -- Today At end of today ... elapsed days 728 elapsed weeks 104 elapsed months 24 (in a few more days) elapsed years 2 (in a few more days) Add ten years of covering IVF file coverage (2012 release). Add more for other lawsuit discussions (membership, GSA, religious, etc). Starting with 1998 Supreme Court case. My whole scouting era has been controversy and legal issues. ... For most of BSA's 110 years, I can't believe there was much controversy at all. Just the last 20.

Talk about deep pockets ... with very actively involved charter orgs ... and adult perpetrators that knew better ... most COs were cities (police and fire departments). That's where your millions per victim will be possible.

"forestalling the inevitable" infers BSA is not viable on a day-to-day basis. That's not my understanding. Lower membership can improve. Donations can return. BSA is in bankruptcy because there is no financial way to cover legal challenges; CSA, GSA, etc. By worse off, I do mean BSA would not be there ... but I also mean victims would get more cash out of a chapter 11 bankruptcy with a settlement.

My questions might have been misunderstood. All related to BSA going chapter 7. How much would be available to victims if BSA went chapter 7. I doubt it would be $2.7B because there is no settlement; no insurance; no LC donation. My 3rd question was if victims would be better off with a chapter 7; not about about neutral party vs TDP and the $20k penalty to get your already existing rights to be heard. From what I read before, BSA chapter 7 would be worse off for everyone including victims. I even question whether chapter 7 is real or if it's a shadow state. BSA can sell everything, but I question if it can go out of business completely because of the congressional charter. It just goes into a shadow state until some future president re-instates BSA using the existing perpetual existence according to law of the congressional charter.

#1 Was there any talk of the toggle; BSA only bankruptcy? #2 How much would be available to victims? #3 Would victims get more than current path? I'm assuming LCs would not be pulled into BSA's chapter 7. Still a possibility, but far shot from what I've read. With Summit and Philmont debt laden and employee retirement programs ... and other legal cases ... and then the legal cost to liquidate assets that could be challenged, would victims really get more from chapter 7? ... Feels like this is a game of chicken where the cars crash full speed into each other. I just don't see an agreement happening and also surviving all the challenges. I am hoping the BSA only is a real option. I hope not but I'm thinking about what would happen? Would this be treated as a franchisor / franchisee bankruptcy? BSA liquidates and LCs sue to keep using IP to avoid harm? Or LCs form a weak association to purchase the intellectual property at firehouse values?

No scouting answer because it's not about scouting. It about running a non-profit corporation. I'll back off on advice at this point. Find someone with expertise running a non-profit. Structure it very well. Find a good accountant (separate from your unit treasurer). Or work with your the head of your previous non-profit who's willing to help do this. While reading on this, I was reminded that things have drastically evolved. Want incorporation bylaws ? ... https://www.rocketlawyer.com/sem/non-profit-bylaws.rl?id=1547&partnerid=103&cid=15314942304&adgid=129546565906&loc_int=&loc_phys=9019558&mt=b&ntwk=g&dv=c&adid=359735223576&kw=minnesota non-profit bylaws&adpos=&plc=&trgt=&trgtid=kwd-880441017292&gclid=Cj0KCQiAr5iQBhCsARIsAPcwROMryOJOk4f9EngqMvRwOhCJgSM7mzVyHwgyINsgqc5TsI1VK7iLX54aAvbDEALw_wcB#/

We can only hope.

Perhaps the "Will BSA Survive" should be asked in a different way because I believe BSA has a financial way to keep going BSA has a market to keep going BSA has a purpose to keep going Here's the big question ... will the exorbitantly expensive and purposefully incompetent demented bankruptcy process make enough progress to let BSA survive? Seriously, the patient is on the table bleeding out tens of millions of dollars each month and no one has a clue the when the settlement agreements will conclude. I know it's worse for so so many, but for BSA to survive, this really needs to go to a BSA only bankruptcy now. Put as much in the trust as possible now and move on.

I trust as you say that this is a "explore and see" type of deal. I agree with your wife that this begs everyone to lawyer up. This web site every periodically hosts questions from removed scouters looking to get the situation corrected. Add a publicly visible database. Add broadcasting the info to the world. Add assocation with an ugly, ugly crime. This really does need to be a public database but one managed by the appropriate government or pseudo-gov authority.

Yes. ... Are there two paths? One for criminal activity. One for G2SS violations without actual crime. Will the public database show only actual crimes or also rejected volunteers because they repeatedly violate G2SS? Then, non-crimes are in the publicly shared visible to the world database? The challenge I see is one I have personally encountered (not thru scouting). When I see criminal activity, my mandatory duty under the law is to file a police report. That's the law. Everything else is a nice have and extra hoops being asked of volunteers who donate their time. I hope I get it right, but it's not my professional paid job. I'm going to make mistakes there. My job is to make the police report. Period.

Plus reporting statistics, etc. The volunteer screening database is a huge part of why we are here now. Society wasn't ready. So BSA tracked and excluded problematic volunteers. #13 now expands that and makes it more than publicly visible and coordinates with the rest of society? This just begs a huge new set of issues. The issue is not the database. The issue is BSA owning a national database shared with other organizations. I can 100% guarantee it will become the target of job searches and background checks. It will be a future legal mess. IMHO, BSA should minimize that database and instead focus on the #13 sub point. "The BSA will take a leadership role and re-engage with other YSOs and agencies including but not limited to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to explore the feasibility of and advocate for a shared national database of adults who have been excluded from working with youths for youth protection related offenses." Such a database is absolutely needed. It can feed statistics, trends, reporting, etc. The problem is BSA owning the database. It's like one company saying they will share their HR employment records with all other companies to let other companies know why they terminated an employee. It would be a mess. When BSA encounters a problematic volunteer, BSA records should show "Membership revoked. See national youth reporting database incident #####."

Short term (10-15 years) COVID has devested scouting. Don't expect a rapid rebound. It's like 9/11. Recruiting nights were killed. It was a measurable loss that tracked thru the years as kids aged. It was consistently measurable. That will be COVID. Those that continued active will continue. A few will return. Most youth though will have found other places to invest their time. I don't see bankruptcy as that huge of a membership issue. Parents are numb to organizations going thru bankruptcy, legal turmoil and having to be structurally fixed. Even after US Olympics ugliness, people continue to support gymnastics. People will continue to attend Univ of Michigan and Pennsylvania. People will still want scouting. If I was 31 again with a 1st grader, it would not have bothered me. Scouting will recover because this country has a story about the rugged outdoorsman and exploring and discovery. It is a unique niche that I don't see filled by any other youth organization. If we say we teach leadership, STEM, etc, scouting will loose to youth sports, robotics clubs, etc. Scouting wins when it's about outdoor adventure, fire, shooting sports, etc. ... It will be 20 years, but it will recover. Parents want their kids outside, off the couch with confidence to have safe moderate adventures. It's a perfect niche for scouting. It's one reason preserving the camps are crucial to scouting. I would absolutely love to brag that my kid went on a 100 mile bike ride like I used to do. Yet, most kids complain about doing a 50 mile bike ride. All my sons are Eagle scouts. All love to camp and I 100% trust them outdoors and I know they love camping and camp fires. ... I think parents will value that.