fred8033

"Historic Trails Award" is the one I always wanted to earn.

I realize you are not necessarily advocating for no BSA. I question the ability to value "scouting" without effectively the same infrastructure that BSA provides. National camps? Advancement program? Structure? Consolidated organization providing background checks? Some people call it "membership" ? Others would call it an annual subscription fee. ... I've already alluded to a question of whether chapter 7 is really feasible with a national charter. (can liquidate, but not really cease to exist long term without a change in law). I've questioned in the past. I question if chap 7 provides significantly more funds to victims than chapter 11. I doubt scouting can exist without a similar national level org. (national camps, standards, training, background checks, etc ... perhaps it can be a much more light weight org) ... I question if chap 7 is feasible with a congressional chapter (can liquidate, but not long term not exist ... requires law change). The question is really the BSA business practices / models. Can bankruptcy force a bigger business model change. More than pushing YP changes. Additionally push business model changes. But then again, what changes ... beyond a more open business model with better published GAAP data. ... But then again, this is 100% true for a large number of non-profits.

Agreed. You would need to find council training chair to get their signature. Or talk with your registrar. I really got to know our council registrars really well. It was key to making my life easier. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/511-057_WB.pdf?_gl=1*1kkbx6w*_ga*MTQwNDgxODI5OC4xNTc5ODk2MDEz*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTY0NDkzNTAyNC40Mi4xLjE2NDQ5MzUzOTkuNTc.&_ga=2.22106297.30730887.1644935025-1404818298.1579896013

Using this thread out of respect for our moderators. Looked for updates this morning and saw ... @MYCVAStory postd: "TCC will be holding a Town Hall on Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8 pm (Eastern) to discuss the latest ..." I had a feeling that I'm in an episode of Twight Zone and Rod Sterling was talking. It's Monday. That's Thursday. ... It's why bankruptcy takes so long? Feb 18, 2020 -- BSA filed bankruptcy Feb 14, 2022 -- Today At end of today ... elapsed days 728 elapsed weeks 104 elapsed months 24 (in a few more days) elapsed years 2 (in a few more days) Add ten years of covering IVF file coverage (2012 release). Add more for other lawsuit discussions (membership, GSA, religious, etc). Starting with 1998 Supreme Court case. My whole scouting era has been controversy and legal issues. ... For most of BSA's 110 years, I can't believe there was much controversy at all. Just the last 20.

Talk about deep pockets ... with very actively involved charter orgs ... and adult perpetrators that knew better ... most COs were cities (police and fire departments). That's where your millions per victim will be possible.

"forestalling the inevitable" infers BSA is not viable on a day-to-day basis. That's not my understanding. Lower membership can improve. Donations can return. BSA is in bankruptcy because there is no financial way to cover legal challenges; CSA, GSA, etc. By worse off, I do mean BSA would not be there ... but I also mean victims would get more cash out of a chapter 11 bankruptcy with a settlement.

My questions might have been misunderstood. All related to BSA going chapter 7. How much would be available to victims if BSA went chapter 7. I doubt it would be $2.7B because there is no settlement; no insurance; no LC donation. My 3rd question was if victims would be better off with a chapter 7; not about about neutral party vs TDP and the $20k penalty to get your already existing rights to be heard. From what I read before, BSA chapter 7 would be worse off for everyone including victims. I even question whether chapter 7 is real or if it's a shadow state. BSA can sell everything, but I question if it can go out of business completely because of the congressional charter. It just goes into a shadow state until some future president re-instates BSA using the existing perpetual existence according to law of the congressional charter.

#1 Was there any talk of the toggle; BSA only bankruptcy? #2 How much would be available to victims? #3 Would victims get more than current path? I'm assuming LCs would not be pulled into BSA's chapter 7. Still a possibility, but far shot from what I've read. With Summit and Philmont debt laden and employee retirement programs ... and other legal cases ... and then the legal cost to liquidate assets that could be challenged, would victims really get more from chapter 7? ... Feels like this is a game of chicken where the cars crash full speed into each other. I just don't see an agreement happening and also surviving all the challenges. I am hoping the BSA only is a real option. I hope not but I'm thinking about what would happen? Would this be treated as a franchisor / franchisee bankruptcy? BSA liquidates and LCs sue to keep using IP to avoid harm? Or LCs form a weak association to purchase the intellectual property at firehouse values?

No scouting answer because it's not about scouting. It about running a non-profit corporation. I'll back off on advice at this point. Find someone with expertise running a non-profit. Structure it very well. Find a good accountant (separate from your unit treasurer). Or work with your the head of your previous non-profit who's willing to help do this. While reading on this, I was reminded that things have drastically evolved. Want incorporation bylaws ? ... https://www.rocketlawyer.com/sem/non-profit-bylaws.rl?id=1547&partnerid=103&cid=15314942304&adgid=129546565906&loc_int=&loc_phys=9019558&mt=b&ntwk=g&dv=c&adid=359735223576&kw=minnesota non-profit bylaws&adpos=&plc=&trgt=&trgtid=kwd-880441017292&gclid=Cj0KCQiAr5iQBhCsARIsAPcwROMryOJOk4f9EngqMvRwOhCJgSM7mzVyHwgyINsgqc5TsI1VK7iLX54aAvbDEALw_wcB#/

We can only hope.

Perhaps the "Will BSA Survive" should be asked in a different way because I believe BSA has a financial way to keep going BSA has a market to keep going BSA has a purpose to keep going Here's the big question ... will the exorbitantly expensive and purposefully incompetent demented bankruptcy process make enough progress to let BSA survive? Seriously, the patient is on the table bleeding out tens of millions of dollars each month and no one has a clue the when the settlement agreements will conclude. I know it's worse for so so many, but for BSA to survive, this really needs to go to a BSA only bankruptcy now. Put as much in the trust as possible now and move on.

I trust as you say that this is a "explore and see" type of deal. I agree with your wife that this begs everyone to lawyer up. This web site every periodically hosts questions from removed scouters looking to get the situation corrected. Add a publicly visible database. Add broadcasting the info to the world. Add assocation with an ugly, ugly crime. This really does need to be a public database but one managed by the appropriate government or pseudo-gov authority.

Yes. ... Are there two paths? One for criminal activity. One for G2SS violations without actual crime. Will the public database show only actual crimes or also rejected volunteers because they repeatedly violate G2SS? Then, non-crimes are in the publicly shared visible to the world database? The challenge I see is one I have personally encountered (not thru scouting). When I see criminal activity, my mandatory duty under the law is to file a police report. That's the law. Everything else is a nice have and extra hoops being asked of volunteers who donate their time. I hope I get it right, but it's not my professional paid job. I'm going to make mistakes there. My job is to make the police report. Period.

Plus reporting statistics, etc. The volunteer screening database is a huge part of why we are here now. Society wasn't ready. So BSA tracked and excluded problematic volunteers. #13 now expands that and makes it more than publicly visible and coordinates with the rest of society? This just begs a huge new set of issues. The issue is not the database. The issue is BSA owning a national database shared with other organizations. I can 100% guarantee it will become the target of job searches and background checks. It will be a future legal mess. IMHO, BSA should minimize that database and instead focus on the #13 sub point. "The BSA will take a leadership role and re-engage with other YSOs and agencies including but not limited to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to explore the feasibility of and advocate for a shared national database of adults who have been excluded from working with youths for youth protection related offenses." Such a database is absolutely needed. It can feed statistics, trends, reporting, etc. The problem is BSA owning the database. It's like one company saying they will share their HR employment records with all other companies to let other companies know why they terminated an employee. It would be a mess. When BSA encounters a problematic volunteer, BSA records should show "Membership revoked. See national youth reporting database incident #####."

Short term (10-15 years) COVID has devested scouting. Don't expect a rapid rebound. It's like 9/11. Recruiting nights were killed. It was a measurable loss that tracked thru the years as kids aged. It was consistently measurable. That will be COVID. Those that continued active will continue. A few will return. Most youth though will have found other places to invest their time. I don't see bankruptcy as that huge of a membership issue. Parents are numb to organizations going thru bankruptcy, legal turmoil and having to be structurally fixed. Even after US Olympics ugliness, people continue to support gymnastics. People will continue to attend Univ of Michigan and Pennsylvania. People will still want scouting. If I was 31 again with a 1st grader, it would not have bothered me. Scouting will recover because this country has a story about the rugged outdoorsman and exploring and discovery. It is a unique niche that I don't see filled by any other youth organization. If we say we teach leadership, STEM, etc, scouting will loose to youth sports, robotics clubs, etc. Scouting wins when it's about outdoor adventure, fire, shooting sports, etc. ... It will be 20 years, but it will recover. Parents want their kids outside, off the couch with confidence to have safe moderate adventures. It's a perfect niche for scouting. It's one reason preserving the camps are crucial to scouting. I would absolutely love to brag that my kid went on a 100 mile bike ride like I used to do. Yet, most kids complain about doing a 50 mile bike ride. All my sons are Eagle scouts. All love to camp and I 100% trust them outdoors and I know they love camping and camp fires. ... I think parents will value that.

Perhaps the wrong thread... That is a very useful answer, but not entirely clear or it doesn't really answer the question. Or are you saying, yes the funds in the trust can be used to finance the legal costs to sue the insurance companies to pay out on the insurance claims. Does that move affect agreements that were contingent and now become a fee-for-service drawing cash down? I'm just wondering ... say the fees and contingent services share pulls out 40% of $200m. Now you are at $120m. Of that $120m, would a check be sent to pay the victims? Or, is it all re-invested to sue the insurance companies? I have no right to the funds. But, there is one result that would make me disgusted. I would cringe if anyone is paid their contingent share of an award without the victim actually getting their share too. I would cringe if the contingent monies are paid out, but then the victim share is used to finance the lawsuits against the insurance companies. Insurance rights does not equal cash. It will cost tens of millions or more to settle those claims. If the toggle happened, I'm curious how the finances of the next legal level happens.

Not sure what thread this goes in. It is a question from months ago. If BSA only bankruptcy put cash in trust for victims, is that money then dedicated to go to victims? Or can it be used by victim advocates to fund a next level of lawsuits? I realize the lawyer side could be used as needed. I was wondering though ... say if it was $200m in the trust ... would at least $100m go as checks to the victims? Or could it all be consumed to fund the next level of individual lawsuits?

Well said. That is what I'm learning too. Professor Kingsfield must have an appropriate quote on this.

Asking for clarification. I'll post my understanding to see if it's right. Civil and criminal SOL changes are very different. US Supreme Court decisions establish a line saying that civil SOLs can be retroactive; thus BSA's situation. At the same time, the US supreme court says removing criminal SOLs is blocked by U. S. Constitution’s Ex Post Facto Clause. Essentially, civil SOL changes can be retroactive, but criminal can't be. So, Missouri can't prosecute your abuser unless the abuse happened after the SOL removal or within the previously standing SOL time frame.

Define "end"? BSA exits bankruptcy as a new fresh company? Or approved agreements? Appeals / challenges resolved? Money is in the trust? Money distributed from the trust? If just simply BSA exits bankruptcy ... BSA entered Feb 2020. ... Exit date? ... I have no clue. All legal wrangling? Years. This forum will have a thread on this very topic going still in 2024. I hope BSA can exit bankruptcy this year. ... but it's just hope ...

I'd encourage everyone to find a way to work together. This is stressful and gut wrenching for all. General comments. Your church has a right to be concerned about signing the charter org agreement. It's not honorific. It's a contract. Words matter. ... The agreement says your church would "Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies." By signing, it your church is accepting responsibility. Your church needs to have a plan to fulfill that commitment. Maybe it means a board member involved in the unit. Maybe the COR/CC are involved in the church board. Maybe there is a planned staff structure. Maybe there is a reporting structure. ... The key is if the church is not willing to set that up and take responsibility, it should not sign the charter. Your church still owns the unit even if it doesn't re-charter the unit. Chartering is about being active and having members. Ownership is about unit numbers, bank account, assets, etc. If you want to change to another church, you need to work with the current church to release the number and assets. Your church spinning off an independent board with leadership to run the unit and at the same time pursuing a facility use agreement sounds like they want to keep the unit running. It can be seen as good. Getting a tax id is easy. Keeping non-profit records is a bit harder, but not a killer. Youth will notice #1 a new building / facility and #2 adults not getting along with each other. This really sounds like an adult and adult relationship issue triggered by the current chartering challenges.

Hand it to the council and buy the award.

Absolutely. I agree. My pack(s) had to do that multiple times too. My apologies. Too late at night and I probably did not write sensitively. I'm like that. Sometimes I miss being sensitive. I did not mean to put the emphasis on the registration issue. I brought up registration to communicate that you should not penalize the DL because the registrations did not meet the exact award. Often, the registrations are outside the DLs control. My emphasis was on the fill out the award application and get them registered. IMHO, the adult awards are a thank you and should not be treated like the requirements in the scout handbooks.

"need to be registered" is the official answer. The answer I've often seen ... including from our council officials ... is if the person is doing the job, get them the recognition. ... NOW ... it begs why the pack doesn't have everyone registered in the right position. That is very important for training and knowing who works with the scouts. BUT, that's the committee chairs job to get all that straight. Don't penalize the den leader who's often only been in scouts for a few years and rarely has worked with chartering the unit and doing the registrations. The adult recognition awards / knots are about recognizing their investment and saying thank you.

Your situation is horrible and truly unimaginable. I did not imagine it. In my council, there are two more levels between DE and SE. A DE would never be promoted directly to SE. First promotion to a field director. Then, a promotion to a higher level director role. It's a 25-30 year route in my council. I really have a hard time imagining (not saying it didn't happen ... I'm saying I can't envision it) where an SE would give drugs, alcohol and porn. Perhaps I'm just too shielded from ugly things that people can do to each other.