fred8033

BSA's documents are not always the most clear or contradict each other. Even in your linked document it does say ... "Existing troops or teams should already have a troop or team committee in place to assist with this process." ... fyi ... drop the word "team" as that version of scouting does not exist anymore. We have troops, packs and crews. "For existing troops or teams, the committee chair should set the meeting date and time, and notify the troop/team committee members." I wish I could quote directly from BSA's Troop Committee Guidebook. ... Like virtually all committee members, I no longer have a copy. Mine was 15 years old and I purged it. It really should be online and freely available. It hurts units to not be readily available as a resource.

QUESTION ... Did someone tell the scouts and their parents that this person is the next SM? QUESTION ... So, is the next SM the right choice or close to the right choice? I'm asking as it's a delicate situation. More damage could be done. The CC needs to judge the right course. The CC needs to smooth the feathers / nerves of all involved no matter the decision. The key is the CC needs to build agreement on how transitions happen. The question is whether this specific transition needs to be reversed. Much of that really depends on the personality, skills and quirks of all the people involved.

Mostly, the adult leader application gives unit leader "approval" powers to the charter org (or representative) and to the SE (or representative) to approve leader positions. Those two signatures defines who has authority. Both signatures because any adult leader becomes a representative of both BSA and the charter org. At the same time, BSA documents the job to appoint unit leaders with the committee chair. https://troopleader.scouting.org/committee-chairman/#:~:text=The troop committee chair appoints,are delegated%2C coordinated and completed. IMHO, the key is it's the CC's real job is to build agreement with all the unit adults (COR, CC, ASM, MC, etc). That includes how transitions are done and who will be filling those roles. It's one of the CC's most important jobs.

I was in a similar boat years ago. The outgoing SM choose the successor. The outgoing SM was an extremely experienced 50 year scouter. Using that experience, the SM circumvented me. To be honest, it was fine. The next SM did a great job. In hindsight, the CC (me) failed to set expectations. I had three years to have those discussions and establish transition expectations. In lieu of establishing those expectations, the SM did what he thought was best. I forgot that other leaders did not live and die the words in the BSA documents. Heck, it's extremely rare for a troop committee member to have read the BSA Troop Committee Guidebook. https://www.scoutshop.org/troop-committee-guidebook-647783.html I'd ask ... did the unit leaders (SM, ASM, CC, COR, etc) have those discussions. Ongoing, long-term transition planning is key to keeping a scouting unit healthy.

Two very different questions .... Foregoing my experience? If it meant one less victim, yes I would avoid BSA if it prevented a single case of abuse. I just don't believe that my avoiding BSA would prevent abuse. Period. I hope that my being in BSA prevented potential abuse by knowing YPT and emphasizing YPT expectations. Change history so BSA does not exist? Nature abhors a vacuum. #1 Youth would find somewhere else to spend time. Would they be safer? I don't think so. That is my opinion though and from what I've seen in life. Cumulatively, I believe there would be more incidence of abuse and other negatives. ... #2 If BSA did not exist, another organization would have become dominant to offer something very similar. The question is would they have done better or worse? Other organizations did not track abusers. Most other organizations were not better. None of this lessens the pain and hurt from those damaged. The abuse happened. The pain is real. USAG - Gymnasts suing FBI ... This last week, I read about abuse survivors suing FBI for negligence. The FBI negligent? These agents are the most professional of all police. If they can't get it right in the last decade, who can? ... This triggered more reading. USAG had a long term problem of predatory coaches that moved gym to gym as issues happened. In 1990, USAG published a list of banned coaches. ... but that list itself had many issues ... https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2016/08/07/holes-child-abuse-safety-net/88118404/ In 2017(??) ... 30 years later... the USAG president said they had no duty to report if they did not first-hand see the abuse or receive a signed statement from ... This is the organization most known for winning USA gold medals. An extremely professional youth organization. And they could not get their act right even into the 2010s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Gymnastics_sex_abuse_scandal The part I don't understand the most ... USAG president did not believe in a duty to report ... USAG boasted a banned coaches list ... but you don't get added until legal proceedings are done? ... and you don't have a duty to report incidents to police? ... huh? ... and background checks only on professional USAG members? not anyone working at the gyms? ... not publishing when membership is suspended? Sadly ... I believe USAG was more common than unique. My life experience. I did not see abuse in scouts. But I've 3rd hand learned (news, etc) about CSA by our former city mayor, local teachers, local music instructors, local coaches, other local youth, etc. ... I just don't believe "cumulatively" there would be less CSA if BSA did not exist.

Lawsuits are like IRS audits ... directly proportional to money involved and how easy to pursue. This is not a realistic risk for the average joe. Higher risk for being sued for negligence by your kid driving your car. ... Different story if you have 100 million personal wealth.

I agree with earlier ... work to make this as transparent to the scouts and scout families as possible. Ideally, this should not affect them. Equipment / money ... I've seen many changes over the years. There has only been problems with money / equipment when there is bad blood between people. That does not sound the case here. ... and to be honest ... I would delicately just ask for a letter saying ... "Troop #### is released from <previous charter> with it's equipment, resources and funds to continue by being chartered under a new charter org.". Then ask your existing charter to sign at the bottom of the memo. That's all you need. ... DO NOT OVER EMPHASIZE THE MONEY QUESTION. IT CAUSES PEOPLE TO GO THE WRONG DIRECTION WITH THINKING. Just ask so you are releasing the troop, it's equipment and it's funds right? Facility Use & Insurance & Catholic Youth Protection Training ... I'm really confused. Perhaps this is something that you can ask further about. If the church is only offering the building for use ... like it would for voter registration, election nights, AA meetings, public events, etc, then why would the church require more than minimal information. ... Proof of insurance. Ok. That's common when lending a building. Our school district required it and our council provided (to me to give to school district) an insurance binding statement. Easy and quick. ... BUT ... Catholic YP is for programs your diocese runs. ... If the diocese is requiring Catholic YP, then the diocese and church are taking responsibility (read as liability) for your unit. If someone violates their YP, how do they know? How do they know if everyone is trained? Will they see the roster? What are their audits? ... Facility Use agreement and requiring Catholic YP is an oxymoron. ... fyi ... I like the idea of having it, but it seems contradictory. So ... Are they offering space for use as they would for many external organizations? Or are they overseeing some amount of the unit and thus requiring Catholic YP ?

Fair enough. As everyone knows in these threads, I'm often off base. I appreciate the follow-up. I hate broad brushes being applied either direction. ... My son and I were talking about this the other night. We are of very different political views, but the one common ... and this is what I value ... we need to find ways to talk with each other. Debate. Discuss. Understanding promotes common ground. It's why I cringe at labels either direction.

Yeah ... it's at best quirky to assert a group's failed ideals when at the same time labeling as bigotry when that other group is not comfortable with your group.

Any status? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Ok. Not really a secret, but something I forgot from years ago. When I took IOLS, somehow it did not get recorded and there was confusion. ... I was relatively new still at that time. I didn't know I could easily have called the council training director and get it resolved. ... BUT ... I worked near a council training staff person who had taught part of IOLS. That person and I met over a few several lunch hours and went thru key points in the syllabus. I went thru the skills and topics. He signed off on my IOLS and it got recorded. IMHO ... there should be a test out option. BUT, the training is often not about any specific skill. It's often more about attitude, meeting people and how to be a scout leader. IMHO ... if you can show ... such as in the above post ... that you have that experience, you should be able to test out. ... plus ... after all the experience above, I doubt IOLS would significantly change someones decision making.

@InquisitiveScouter ... My apologies. It's the continual dumping. Statements like: that's failure. stuck in the 1970s. holding other groups which trashing their own. It was within ten years that I remember the local traveling hockey ... after checked into the hotel, all the adults went to the bar for the night ... except one adult stayed back at the hotel with the youth. I'm almost 100% that adult had not been background checked or trained. Just a dad that did not want to sit in a bar. I remember other similar groups had similar practices. It was common and there are still many bad practices. It really feels like people just want to complain. BSA training and registration have drastically improved in the last twenty years. It still has a long way to go. In some ways, BSA is suffering because it did start 15 years ago with online training. I've now seen many versions of online training. It's expensive to keep re-designing. Similar for registration. It will keep improving. It's not ideal. But BSA is far from deserving the trash talk.

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Glad to hear. Not to be argumentative ... but ... the history of the last ten years is not consistent across organizations. When I use the WAY BACK MACHINE (archive.org) to look at our local groups, the the big transition was in 2017 for the city sports league and the school district school. The local city baseball league uses a regional resource that the state league co-founded to do background checks and training. The creation was explained as they had nothing else and wanted something easy and automated. I clearly remember the school volunteer registration started around ten years ago and their vendor shows significant ramp up between 2015 and 2018. I'm saying ... Don't paint too broad of a brush. This last ten years has been drastically evolving. BSA has been moving at least as fast if not faster. The real challenge now is their automation is not as clean as some of the other groups. ... now that I think about it ... BSA does provide scoutbook; any registered unit member can see the roster. The roster of leaders means the person has had background checks and completed youth protection training. IMHO, I'd also like to see it indicate if each position has completed position specific training. BUT, every parent can see if the leader state. ... Perhaps it should be more explicit ... "THESE ARE THE REGISTERED LEADERS THAT HAVE COMPLETED BACKTGROUND CHECKS AND THE REQUIRED YOUTH PROTECTION TRAINING. ... ANYONE ELSE HELPING THAT DOES NOT APPEAR HERE HAS NOT BEEN CLEARED."

Glad to hear the current state of art in the original post. It's good news. It is the BSA direction too. This is a reflection of ten years of huge evolution with technology. The NICA site sounds good, but I'm sure they have their dirty laundry too. What if you don't click the link? Would the team coach be hapy if 3 of 10 parents complete the registration? What does your kid's team coach do if you don't register? Do you know if the other adults helping the team have registered, passed their checks and completed training? When team activities happen, is there coverage? SUGGESTION - I'd like to see broad visibility into the health of the unit. The training/registration reports are easily available to unit commissioners and to key unit leaders. IMHO, those same reports should be up-front available to each and every parent of a scout in the unit. Get big red Xs on the report showing not trained, not registered or expired background checks.

Well taken and accepted. Not sure whether to use a like, love or laugh emoji.

Perhaps it's best to keep this thread to the lawsuit. Perhaps we can agree that predators abuse where there are youth and where there is opportunity. We expect youth programs to be safe. I've truncated my long, lengthy, multi-pronged response. ... I'll save it incase it's useful. But it's a re-hash of three years of postings. I'll limit to ... Let's avoid the flippant. "You're entitled to your opinion but it's not based on facts." Sadly, it's usually followed by a fact that someone said something, but what was said was an opionion. Facts around CSA are extremely hard to find and even harder to compare. 4-H is only one program, but it may not be a good match as it's very different and not well understood by everyone. Even then, I question the reporting as 4H says it's the largest youth program with 6.5M members. Three times larger than little league or GSA or BSA. . BUT, I've known dozens of youth in so many other programs, but not one that I know by name that was in 4-H. I'm really amazed at that. ... My gut feeling is 4H is very different and might not be a good comparison. Perhaps it's better to compare scouts with school, music, sports, church, etc. Programs that that parallel scouts with years of deeper organized involvement.

Yeah, but cookies are sought and wanted versus the lame popcorn.

Also ... the events are also needed to create energy / connections for future contributions that don't get tied directly to the events. So losing money on some events might be acceptable if the overall on-going fundraising efforts are going well.

Really nice. This is very special.

I can share my personal view of the fraud. Hoping it's appropriate here. If not appropriate, please feel free to delete. Victims - Intentional fraud I don't believe intentional victim fraud is significant. This is absolutely not a get-rich-quick scheme. This is not like whiplash or claiming a work injured bad back. This is injecting yourself into an ugly past; with life-changing implications and the case will take years to work thru. This means interviews, follow-on and years of waiting for cash. Perhaps there is some small number wishing to associate with a large legal case or be famous for some reason or chase future dollars. ... I just don't see it as significant. Victims - Unintentional fraud or imperfect cases I don't believe this is a significant impact. I believe some facts may be influenced to better the case. I believe some incidents are outside SOLs or outside other limitations. I believe some incidents are less connected to scouting. An example being someone who had strong connection to the abuser outside scouting. I believe some victims have incomplete or vague memories. Memories of 7 to 14 years old are rarely clear 40/50 years late. I believe some victims may not know the scouting relationships involved or if they were even in scouts. Perhaps it was Indian Guides, squires, church youth group or another similar youth organization. Legal process Intentional fraud to preserve victim's rights (or to get largest number of claims). Absolutely. This is where I believe there has been fraud. Period. Fraud with signatures, unfulfilled expectations, process, deadlines, paperwork, representation, etc. It's an ethical justification of fraud to argue "preserving the rights" of the victim. Leave that to an ethics course. "Officer, I'm running late for my appointment". Whatever. It's still fraud. The deadlines were clear. The court expectations were clear. Not fraud is providing a list of pending paperwork to the court before the deadline and then submitting correct paperwork the next week. I'd be surprised if the court rejected those additions. Instead, court expectations were intentionally ignored. I do believe there is still case duplication across firms. I'm not sure if it is a large, but with what I've seen I'm begging firms will be arguing with the trust on who represents who. I just don't see victim fraud as significant. ... Legal fraud? ... well ...

@mashmaster ... I'm sorry. It's hard when so much is invested and is lost soon after. I've seen it on both ends (packs and troops). It's just one of many strong indicators that the BSA scouting program needs significant re-engineering.

I've heard good things, but I cringe when my fellow adult leader used his bripe. It's like a coffee hookah. I know it has nothing to do with it, but it teases a drug culture. It's just something I want to avoid on a scout trip. I want scouts to think I'm as basic as possible.

Thanks. I fear I'm watching this more than I ever watched any single sporting event. ... I'm still wondering how all the insurance will wash out. ... I know it's been explained to me before, but it feels like it's a pressure game and seeing who flinches first. Not looking for an answer, but I read documents like this one ... https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/17379ed6-8eb0-454b-bf0a-ed5187df49c1_BSA_Coverage_Charts_consolidated.pdf ... and wonder ... why would some of the insurance companies ever settle? Insurance is stacked. Many of the policies provided "excess" insurance to pay damanges after a first portion is paid. There are thresholds. If the first source of insurance settles for less than the "excess" threshold, I just don't get why the later insurance would be triggered, ever. In the 1990s, I benefited (a payout) from a class action against BCBS (Blue Cross Blue Shield). BCBS negotiated invoice discounts on their portion of the bill, but did not pass the discount to the insured. The insured was paying based on the raw invoice. So if the insured per contract was to pay 20%, the reality was the insured was often paying a far higher percent because BCBS had their privately negotiated discount. ... That seems analogous here. ... I don't get how some of the tiered insurance companies will be liable to pay when the primary insurance settles for less than the amount that triggers the excess.

This a previously discussed insurer concern. Months ago? Year+? Insurers saying they are being thrown under the bankruptcy bus without the policy holder helping triage / defend the claims. Instead, the policies will be held by a trust who's interest is to get the most possible from the insurer. Question: Is this really different than other huge insurance claims. Bankruptcy is like the insured going out of business. Further liability is passed up to the insurance company? Once the insured maxed out how much to pay, the insured stops defending the claim.