fred8033

Any reason on theft? Recycling value of the metal? Anti-BSA? Re-sale of the art?

Hugely agree with this! Thoreau wrote "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."

Your points are well taken. Switzerland. Mexico. etc. I've hesitated responding because of extreme political intensity here. IMHO, it's not a gun problem, but perhaps gun control could help save lives. ... perhaps could break the cycle ... I'll avoid deciding either way on that ... I value the bill of rights just too much to take it lightly. My view. This is a fundamental civility, empathy and understanding the real hard facts of life. These murderers are playing out a demented fantasy to show their personal pain. Scouting has a place in this discussion. Hard lessons teach understanding your actions and choices have implications and results. Example ... You forget to zip your tent shut? Then you and your buddy are going to sleep with mosquitos and/or rain soaked sleeping bags. These small, safe scouting level screw ups help teach survival, empathy and responsibility to each other. Is NRA good or bad? I don't know, but political vilifying NRA is just another demented fantasy that stops larger reflection on what the heck is going on.

Not explicitly. Rather, it's inherently the key part of scouting and has been that way since scouting was created. Without that element, scouting is not distinctly different from many other groups.

My initial reaction was a mismatch. OA being an elected selection of scouts across many units. Venturing being yet another unit type. Not parallel concepts. ... Also, OA is very much about giving back; service; often to local camps. Perhaps, OA could benefit from a partnership with older scout programs like venturing; a symbiotic relationship. Venturing would benefit from visibility. ... I don't think it solves the fundamental instability of specific venturing units.

I don't know you, but your story sounds similar to a several scouters I've met. Most started at the unit level. Once shown effective, they often help at district / council. A few are plugged in at the national level also directly contributing to key areas. ... Given the number of councils and volunteers and I've run into several plugged in higher, I'd expect this is a broader pattern that you represent. ... From what I remember, that's how the G2A 2011 re-write was done. I was not plugged in to that effort.

Sad note ... I plan to start posting less. For the last six to twelve months, I've been quietly inviting a set of volunteers to help in my role. I'm hoping that if I build enough excitement in them, the next generation steps up to take my last role. If not, the best way to recruit the next volunteer is to walk away and leave a vacuum to fill. Someone will get sucked in. My target date is September / October to have the new group in place and then to step back. I learned scouting when my oldest son joined in August 2000. I found the closest, dearest friends in scouting, but most have moved on. I could continue in my role for years, but I think it's time for me to let the next generation help ... and my golf game really really needs attention. It's the shame of all my friends. I post this hear because I'd really like to see a venturing solution. And a membership solution. And an adventuring solution. I'm not sure I'll see them.

I can understand your thoughts. It aligns with my view of recent citizenship badge changes. The changes were done during a highly political time and have not been smoothly received. On the flip side ... there is a current problem and a strong need. The long term solution might need time to design, etc. In the short term, do you keep a program that fails 75% of the time? ... I view the inclusion of crews as extensions of a troop as a "work around" that could smoothly give young adults a path to experience scouting. ... Then again, I agree with statements about Sea Scouts and Exploring, etc. They have solid paths. .... Different though is venturing. Venturing has always been nebulous in goals and structure. I tend to believe Venturing aligns well with core scouting where cubs are the younger years and Venturing are the older years. IMHO, I'd love to see them under the same committee Tigers thru Venturing. Then again, this will take time to wash thru. I've tended to favor learning much more from our tea taxing friends.

It's not BSA. It's the legal environment in this country.

Well said. Sounds like my exact words on teaching responsibility and leadership. It's why I usually emphasize leaders should focus on executing an active program and not on teaching leadership / responsibility. ... The flip side is we have a repeatedly failing program now. Venturing crews rarely survive more than a few years. A few survive. The vast majority don't. That's a call for re-engineering.

Matching with a troop ... Many times an existing troop could be a good match for a crew. Not always, but often. Crew (patrol) purpose / objectives don't have to be a 100% match with the troop. It should be able to set it's own objectives. Just like any patrol doesn't have to do all the activities of the troop. Patrols should be able to execute their own activity schedule. In fact, that's an ideal that patrols have their own patrol activities / camp outs / etc. Crews (patrol) not well matched with the nearest troop should be able to be structured under another troop or create their own troop. Similar issue with patrols and scouts not matched well with an existing troop. Feels more like a concern where it's hard to get people to play well together. The big differences are minor ones. crew --> troop and venturing patrol. Advisor --> scoutmaster. Dark green uniform --> tan scout uniform.

Agreed. In many ways, the whole crews, packs, posts, etc is really confusing. A simplification would be welcome.

Given ... Programs that partially work often do more damage than good. Always looking to simplifying the program. Existing challenge how to deal with scouts that turn 18. Crews would benefit from being attached to a troop. Continuity. Program. Equipment. Friendship. It also allows a structure to handle the youth transition into adulthood. A GSUSA leader taught that scouts often learned best when we think of learning as a progression of responsibility. I think it's true here too. Crews fail because of turnover (advisors and members). Being attached to a troop has lots of benefits including future members. IMHO, troops should be thought of as a home with a progression of options from the 11 year old on his first camp out to the 18/19 year old looking for the scout fellowship and adventure.

Agree. Play to the strengths of the program. The strengths are the uncomfortableness of being outdoors in new situations. It naturally teaches responsibility, leadership and fellowship. In reality, the program works better when you don't emphasize the marketed goals and instead focus on the basics. Hiking. Swimming.

I'd argue then that it's how your camp does it. Our summer camp never offered chemistry. Any badge if done really well can be popular.

I'll challenge that. Until the last two years, I was at summer camp for 17 years straight. Most chosen - Eagle required ... first, aid, emergency prep, camping, swimming, etc Next highest - were cool rare opportunities - Small boat sailing, ATV, horsemanship, astronomy, etc Basic badges - Finger carving, climbing, riffle shooting, archery. etc Trades related - Welding, etc Filling slots were done by some badges. Not unpopular, but usually a good number of scouts. Mammal studies. Bird Studies. Forestry. Chess. STEM - Were popular, but depending on which one. People who signed up for stem usually had been thru the other badges or wanted to do a session where they earned three instead of two separate for two. ... Rocketry was popular. Electronics, somewhat. etc. One trouble is defining what is STEM versus what is trades or just plain old long-standing badge. STEM can be popular, but not really any more than others.

Now, that sort of sounds fun. I can see it happening this way. ... Need to avoid the last kid chosen issue.

Dang. I'm worn out on the berating NSP. NSPs work. If people judge NSPs don't work, it's because that's what people want to see. ... The question is what do you want scouting to be. I want it to be a set of friends ... who regularly get together to keep their bond ... who can go out and have their own adventures. Ideally, they develop life-long friendships. If not, that's fine too. I am 100% okay if a specific patrol name dies out after the last member finishes his journey. If anything, those 17 year old scouts that are the last few in their patrol become the best troop guides as it gives them a job. Perhaps scouting has so much trouble because scouting can exist in so many ways. Baseball is throw, catch, hit, run. Well-defined. Same for football. Block, tackle, run, pass, catch.

Years ago I talked with our registrar when our council was looking to sell a piece of property. I was sad. Her comment is that if you look at the council over time, property has been bought or donated and sold. Camps change hands. ... Then she started identifying the past camps our council had. I never knew that our council had so many different camps over the last 90 years.

Agree. Scouting is not baby sitting or adult led. Scouting is a safe environment to try and fail. ... Beyond that, "following the program" can be implemented many ways to create a unique personality for the troop.

I can't think of any direction this will go that won't lead to huge frustration for many. If any part of this bankruptcy moves forward, this will be a long cycle of multiple appeals. It's one reason I always thought it would end with a BSA only bankruptcy with other cases pursuing insurance, LCs and COs. ... I never thought it would get this far. ... Not the first time I've been wrong in my life.

When I was 18 to 20+, my life was continually changing. Moving. School. Friends. Relationships. I question how many at that age would survive a multi-year club commitment. It feels like program that will naturally fall into disorganization. I craved adventure and doing things. I wish the local scouting councils would have opened up their summer camps to us to use during non-summer times. If the opportunity existed for me to go with a group, I would have gone. For example, our council's camp is 2+ hours away and sits idle most of the year. I had a well behaved set of friends. Could we have gone up and used one of their camp sites with some support of borrowed gear? I wish scouting would find a way to plug in young adults on a less committed basis. ... Join us on this weekend for a backwoods, life changing experience.

@curious_scouter ... Nice !!!! ... I wonder if councils will encourage a council volunteer-run, separate, non-profit to charter units.

As long as I've had scouts in scouting ... Dale vs BSA ... CSA ... bankruptcy ... there has been a unhealthy relationship between BSA and GSA; mostly from GSA to BSA. ... I'd say more, but it's hard without accusations. But, it does feel like GSA has lifted themselves by pointing out issues and enjoying BSA be a target. Seeing an explicit reference to GSA lawsuit even tangentially related to a PR effort to smear BSA ... that really does make me sad. Perhaps the real issues is GSA sees it's own days as numbered when BSA emerges from bankruptcy.

Yep. Adventure does not have to be expensive. It can be, but does not have to be.