fred8033

The discussion was started because It was asserted the fundamental problem is that the professionals manage the volunteers ... and that professionals want to continue to direct volunteers ... and professionals hand-pick volunteers ... and put yes-men on committees. It is the vast majority of cases, it's just not true. What I've seen are higher tiers (professional or volunteer) excited when someone skilled and competent steps up to help. I've known lots of BSA professionals. DEs make squat for money. The middle level does not do much better. The SEs and top-level national do ok, but I doubt much better than other orgs at that level. I can agree. There are definitely things that frustrate me with BSA. But then again, it happens in any organization that you get deeply involved in, paid or volunteer. Even more in volunteer organizations, as people tie their personal self-fulfillment and self-value from being involved and being heard.

Just to confirm ... NEC / NEB are volunteers. Beyond receiving lunches and incidentals, these are volunteers. People assume "executive" means paid. BSA is very much a volunteer organization. Councils are political. I've been on council committee for 5+ years (longer unofficially) and district for 14+ years. ... Amazing how time goes fast, but I'm still far junior compared to the 30+ year council volunteers. ... I've seen the politics, but it's mainly the politics of people who can't work with other people. OR, people who overstep and make it personal. ... Similar to how these discussion can become personal.

Yeah. Probably time for me to bow out. The conversation is going too tangential and not relevant to the original post. I believe we have a failure to communicate.

LOL. One. Perhaps I'm lucky to be associated with a really good council and really good people. I've seen a fair number of people red-listed by scouting professionals. It's usually because of conflict or personality issues. I try not to ask too much because even from the outside it's usually fairly obvious. On the other hand, volunteer recruitment has always happened by volunteers (committee chairs, membership committees, etc) ... by the volunteers. ... It's pretty consistent with what I said. BSA is a volunteer organization mostly run by volunteers. Yes, professionals can uninvite you to the party, but it's the volunteers that recruit and manage the other volunteers.

There is also being a conspiracy theorist believing in sinister forces around every corner and in every shadow. The world is never that clear cut. In reality, it is far closer to the guidebooks than not.

Looking for absolutist yes/no? Out of 270+ councils and millions of people, you will always find examples to support any conclusion. It's a faulty generalization to represent the program that way. Also, the question was "volunteer management". i.e. who oversaw the volunteers that committed the offenses? BSA has ALWAYS been a volunteer led organization at every level. The key points related to volunteer mgmt of the offenders are Key three ... the key concept guidebooks - how the program works hiring / firing volunteers Guidebooks - This define how the program works. Unit - Pack - https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/pack-committee-resources/ Purchasable. Not available in PDF yet. Unit - Troop - http://www.commissioner-bsa.org/kit/Troop Committee Guidebook 34505.pdf chapter 4 District - https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/34739.pdf Council - https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/33071.pdf Hire / fire - Hiring is a weak term for volunteers as they are not compensated. Unit hire / fire ... "Hiring" is always the job of the charter org head (CO) or their representative (COR). Paid professionals do NOT select or hire unit volunteers. ... CO selects and oversees the volunteers. ... "firing" is also the COR/CO. That has been the topic of dozens and dozens of threads here when unit issues happen. ... BSA does have the right to remove BSA membership when things go really wrong. BSA is very similar to the concept of commissioning professionals. You can't work if you are not commissioned. Well, you can't be a unit volunteer if BSA removes your membership. District / council ... it's the repeated pattern. My council committee work happened because I bubbled up from the district committee. Others have been selected by selected council committees to help, but that is usually by selection of a council committee chair or vote of the committee. Yes at times the paid professional can help suggestion / influence. But it's always under the oversight of volunteers. ... District volunteer selection is done by the district chair (volunteer) with the guidance of the district membership chair (volunteer). ... Council - Paid professionals are hired / fired by the council board. BSA national commissions (approves as eligible) but does not hire / fire council paid professionals. Council paid professionals can recommend, but the council board (volunteers) oversee the hiring firing. Key three - here is a strongly repeated and followed pattern that is well known. The key three are two lead volunteers and a paid professional that works a as a resource to the two volunteers ... At the unit level, there is no "paid professional", but we still use the term key-three. From bottom up. Unit key three are the Charter org head (CO) or their representative (or COR) with the SM and the Committee chair. All volunteers. There is no paid professional in unit key three. There is no paid involvement in the unit. District ... The "key three" repeating pattern continues, but adds the first paid professional. District key three are the district chair (volunteer), a district commissioner (volunteer) overseeing all the unit commissioners and a district exec (paid). The DE is the resource under the chair and commissioner. The DE does not do unit volunteer mgmt. The DE NEVER does district committee volunteer mgmt. .... The DE might suggestion, consult, recommend, but it's under volunteers at all levels. ... Only when it gets really ugly, then the only DE power is to recommend revoking BSA membership. Council ... This pattern repeats again: council president (volunteer), council commissioner (volunteer) and council exec (SE scout exec). The SE is working under the direction of the council board (volunteers). To address the question of "volunteer management" as professionals get their "yes men" is over simplified bunk. It does not address the question. It's also not how the organization works.

Dang. I fear being baited, but I do want to reply. My BSA experience is that BSA does not manage volunteers. It was never, ever, ever structured that way. The CO agreement document explicitly lays out who does what. BSA is about providing training and resources. CO is to "utilize the Scouting program to ... " and "Conduct the Scouting program" ... The CO has the ownership of executing and managing the program. The example repeatedly seen is when units have trouble with leader conflict. There is ZERO the local council or national can do. DEs are mostly powerless to "manage" the issues. Only when it gets toxic enough that BSA views the charter org agreement or membership application has been violated, then the leader can get their BSA membership revoked. That's the only power BSA has. The CO has always had the power to manage the volunteers. The fundamental problem is the charter org model. Out dated. More marketing than how the program works. You will never broadly see it. Victims rightly are angry. Many don't accept the premise of the statements.

... hoping to avoid sides too much ... "Liberal era from 1958-1976" ... The 1960s "liberal" sexuality front-person was Allan Ginsburg, the poet of the beat generation. https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/08/specials/ginsberg-obit.html Famous and popular his whole life and at his death in 1997. An early vocal advocate for LGBT+ lifestyles. Also, a pedophile and a vocal advocate for pedophilia, including publishing poems about it and joining a national organization. Times have changed.

Changing charters: There is no checklist. With changing charters, it's not a dissolution. It's a letter signed by the charter org leader addressing the ownership of the unit name/number, gear, assets and liabilities. I've moved a cub pack twice and a troop once. It was effectively a signed letter saying. To <council name>, ... <charter organization> releases unit (or units) #### including the unit's gear and bank accounts to be rechartered under another charter organization. Sincerely <Signed Senior Pastor or Charter Org Exec>. I then had the new charter org sign a Charter Org Agreement and brought all the documents to the council registrar. It's really rather easy. It's more about conversations than paperwork. Dissolving: Even easier. No paperwork generally. Just clean up the closets and document what you will do with the assets (gear and bank accounts). DE Involvement: DEs focus on new charter agreements to start units. DEs need to be included / consulted when moving charters, but it's really subject to the drive of the unit leadership. Key point: Document well. Phone calls to hear concerns in a living voice. Update emails to everyone involved (unit leaders, charter org exec, DE, district commissioner) stating what is going on. Don't surprise anyone. Don't leave people in the dark. I tried my best to communicate at each step: Here's what I'm thinking. Here's what I'm about to do. Here's what I did. It does not need to be fancy. For me, it was the same update email to everyone at the same time at each step.

Very well written and well reasoned. I doubt complete death. A BSA only would be ugly. Many councils would be forced into bankruptcy. I'm thinking states like CA and NY that have many cases under re-opened SOLs. Others will survive because they don't have the deep pockets or the SOLs are not open or not enough cases. Many will be dropped because the cash will not be there to be an incentive to law firms. I doubt BSA death because many councils would survive. Some are under SOL closed states. Some don't have the cases. Some don't have the wealth. My view is the size of this bankruptcy case has perverted the law, the legal process and basic justice. Of course, I want victims to get restitution, but I'm not sure if that is possible except if funded by the federal government treasury. It is a national charter. Failure was everywhere at so many levels of society. I would rather see this litigated closer to the specific cases.

All are possibilities as as I doubt every LC scout executive is in BSA good graces. Some are more tightly plugged in than others. Generally, I think this is about customer relations. LCs want unit scouters to focus on their units and not get caught up in the ugly larger noise. So, I really doubt LCs think the unit scouters want to know / need to know / should know the ugly details of everything going on.

I've given up predicting. I'm amazed we got this far. I don't even understand how the plan is legal to give so many 3rd party organizations legal protection ... especially as BSA's assets are approx $400m (at the start) and the insurance company, CO, LCs, etc cumulatively are in the billions.

Agreed and well-said. The trouble is looking back ... 1950s ... 1980s ... I really question whether courts and lawyers then would have interpreted as broadly as now being applied retroactively. ... BUT ... that's an old argument that will require pages and pages to re-hash. Time to restructure the relationship between BSA and the volunteers. BSA as a records-only organization seems like a possible good idea. LCs could have an association that forms / authors / votes on standards and policies. One standard is that to be a registered member in a troop, you need to make a record of your leadership in that unit. An application renamed as a unit membership record. The record is maintained by some new larger common-organization, but that larger common-organization is not treating you as an agent of their larger organization. Analogy ... many companies contract out Human Resources, Payroll, Legal, facilities, janitorial, etc. That does not make the company employees agents of the HR / payroll / legal / facilities / janitorial companies. ... Similar, local councils could contract out the record keeping to an organization hired / contracted by the LC association to manage their application / advancement records. ... extension ... this could be extended down to LC / UNIT level. ... then agency is really at the unit level where it always has been. ... It's important to make the legal situation meet the reality of how the program works. BSA and LCs never have had staffing control over units.

HA non-profits? Separating is smart to legally split resources to avoid having deep, deep pockets that bait lawsuits. Creating targeted non-profits would be fine. My ideal would be that National Parks create the idea of Adventure Bases that schedule, outfit and support non-profit youth organizations that teach outdoor skills and provide outdoor experiences. Philmont National Park. Summit National Park. Each would have trek paths. Each would have outfitting. Each would have specialty sub-camps. Northern Tier is already surrounded by massive national parks with many outfitters that can easily support scout-sized groups. Sea Base ... I hate saying it as I love Sea Base, but Sea Base could be either a dedicated non-profit or it's role could be absorbed by existing for-profit outfitters. ... The last time we sent a crew down ... Sea Base contracted with a private ship to sail the scouts. Sea Base provided the food, some gear, showers and a bed the night before the trek started. So, the "Sea Base" experience was very limited. Replace BSA with LC association A strong argument can be made here, but replacements would need to be found. It's not just about standards. Associations staffed by LC volunteers We have previous good examples here such as how the 2011 GTA was created. LCs could recommend volunteers that participate in national standards and associations targeting: uniform, advancement, etc Program and standards Perfectly setup for group authoring via volunteer associations Supply Patches would need approved / designed suppliers We used classb.com for years. There are others. Provide standard artwork for official patches. Provide standards and recommended vendors. Recommend units buy from the same vendor. Google: tan tactical shirt short sleeve ... or tan explorer short sleeve shirt Google: olive green canvas tactical shorts ... or olive green canvas tactical pants Hard infrastructure ... Some things do need more than just associations. Examples Records database Background checks ... potentially could be done by each LC now Insurance ... potentially could be done by each LC now BSA Membership Perhaps we need to re-think being a registered BSA member. Rather, BSA is really a records-keeping organization (and has always been) . ... yeah, we have a record of this volunteer. Yep, they submitted an application. Yep, they had a background check. Yep, they are associated with this city / charter org / scouting unit. Yep, this scout earned XXX rank and these badges. Here's a report on the years of their involvement. The legal documents really need to reflect reality, as there is no way BSA has ever or could ever effectively treat their massive volunteer base as employees. BSA needs to re-think the structure to get the legal structure to match reality. ... side note ... It still baffles me. BSA has liability as the volunteers are viewed as acting agents (employees). But, the agents pay to be members inside BSA. So, BSA really has no employment role with them. It's really strange.

Judge is waiting for the Geek Squad to recover her password.

For those who keep score ... ... Today is July 15, 2022 BSA filed bankruptcy - Feb 18, 2020 ... 2 years 5 months ago Court hearings ended and waiting ruling - April 15, 2022 (?) ... 3 months ago Appeals, creating and administering the trust, etc, ... TBD years

Yes. ... from my limited following, it seems BSA wants the bigger bankruptcy. I'd argue it's definitely also the plaintiff side too. From my understanding, if it was a BSA only bankruptcy, the pot of money is much smaller and would be distributed to the victims. Instead, the bigger bankruptcy effectively lets the BSA money finance getting money from insurance companies, LCs, etc. ... This is the part that's sort of creepy to me. In large class actions, law firms often finance the suit as part of getting their own windfall. In this case ... at least in my view ... firms are getting hourly payments ... and will also get a large windfall as a share of the settlements. ... I could be wrong. It seems wrong to get both the hourly rates and the windfall.

Agreed. At some point, it's a matter of perspective too. For example, arguments can be made from statistical broad patterns and others are using a selection of legal cases. If you look from legal case wise, BSA is guilty. It's how the system works now. Many view that system as corrupt and as a self-serving legal system. i.e. the $185m in proceedings against a bankrupt company that had $400m in assets. If you approach the arguments from statistics, the IVF files might have a different conclusion. Then consider that BSA had 100+ million youth and 10s of millions of adults. You will find ugly legal cases in any organization of that size. ... If you look at statistical broad patterns to define, then there may be a different conclusion. ... i.e. did BSA have a higher incident rate than others. I've been reading the IVF files and amazed at the numbers that I'm seeing that do have press clippings and/or police involvement. I was actually trying to do see what the percentages were. Take ten random cases from every five years. Were police involved? Was there press? Did parents know? I wish I could have finished last night.

Shame on you. Eventually every discussion ends with bringing Hitler in. I'd argue against devaluing other people by associating them with trump or evil or racism or genocide. It's just not scout like. The opposition would point out the badgering, bullying and attempts to overwhelm and devalue the opinion of others. We should avoid this association so we don't become yet another set of hypocrites sitting on a Jan 6th house committee on unamerican activities.

Thanks Johnsch322. ... Last night just to remember ... because this has been going on for painfully long time ... I re-read 20(???) of the files. The files are painful to read. I ran into one or two where LA times (or lawyers) highlighted parts they thought were significant; a thread of comments about confidentiality and media coverage. It took a lot of though on what those words meant and the context of the comments. The highlighted parts dealt with confidentiality. The case had prosecutors, police, parents and press (word chosen for alliteration ... a media representative that as also on the local council executive board) not pass the information onto the local newspaper. All parties agreed on the action course. Press were involved. It really begged a pre-existing judgement to decide if it was noise or damming evidence. To be honest, where the IVF files really creep me out is just how many times everyone (parents, police, council, etc) push for the perpetrator to get treatment or that it's treated as a morality crime. Or that the conviction is dealt with a really short jail time or even just probation. ... To see parents write letters asking that their son's abuser get treatment just creeps me out.

Many of us have read dozens and dozens of files. It's not that the files are hearsay and innuendo. It's that the interpretation people are applying is often twisted by decades of time having passed or ignoring context or simply begging the conclusion people want to present. Of the thousands of files, you will be able to find ones that are not handled well. From what I've read, most (not all) seem like they were handled reasonably given the time and place.

Printed materials from 1960s/70s were still the believe your government / trust authority. The street protests of the late 1960s were opposite. The printed materials were 20 years behind. I'll track down the referenced examples.

I just can't imagine. What a hell of a caricatured childhood to grow up in. Dumb question - I fear even asking. What was a soft hands contest? That makes no sense.

@ThenNow ... As always, I respect what you say and appreciate your writing it clear and well. I agree BSA has improved over the years. Some on it's own. Some by court. I don't accept BSA had a higher standard. I saw your earlier post quoting the BSA handbook. It was the same post-war marketing rhetoric we often saw talking about people in position. I often think about the TV show MASH episode that mocked the rhetoric when the episode was about making a pre-movie war news reel. Hawkeye and Trapper John entered the tent with narration about sainted doctors in surgical garb. ... That was the time. Same with Disney school documentaries or the Mr. Science hour or many other different videos. That does not automatically create a higher expectation. I think about about groups that clearly failed that explicitly did have higher standards. Police. Courts. Schools. etc. I also don't accept the conceal statement. But, we've been thru this many times. I guess this discussion is who-posts last.

STEM ... Trades ... Traditional MBs ... Perhaps the best way to decide the direction to go is to just measure popularity. A summer camp should see which are popular ... probably a result of the camp offering a great program / experience. Those that are popular are the ones that scouts probably enjoy and benefit from. Perhaps just minimize naming / categorization into STEM / TRADES. Any MB can be categorized different ways. IMHO, do scouts enjoy and benefit. Perhaps the real issue is special STEM marketing and special groupings of STEM into special awards that feel like marketing.