fred8033

Nice. I come from a different school of thought. I'd prefer to not have that class and to not help the scout too much. Don't be an obstacle, but let's not create an overly structured scout experience. Rather, filling out blue cards is a great chance to have conversations with the scout and to give him things to look at and work on. It's a chance for the scout to improve and solve things. ... Another way to work it. If the scout brings you a blue card that is not cleanly filled at the start, give them a new blue card and walk them thru filling it out neatly.

I sympathize. I also have contempt for the legal process being used in this bankruptcy. Even before the victim infomercials, this has been a boon-doggle and a money grab. There is no way this bankruptcy will make victims whole. The awareness was raised years / decades ago. Nothing is gained except re-opening old wounds yet again for several more years. I'd rather see BSA go thru bankruptcy on their own. BUT, at this point, the money has been spent on the settlement with a gamble of huge payouts by insurance companies and co-defendants. ... BSA on it's own has little to give defendants in a chapter 11 or chapter 7 now. ... The whole process is disgusting. At this point, the best is for the process to reach a conclusion. I fear chapter 7 would mean another ten years of lawsuits, etc. ... victims getting little ... the legal process eating the assets.

Until something like the 1992 congressional debate (forgot about that) was passed as law, BSA ... even if liquidated and had no employees or records ... could be spun back up. We think of the Congressional Charter as honorific ... and it mostly is ... but it adds a nebulous legal state that can be used to re-hydrate a failed BSA. That is my point. Congress doesn't have to give another company a congressional charter. BSA has perpetual existence until the charter is withdrawn by congress passing another law. A patriotic president could effectively spin up BSA without a law or any action and continue to use the charter. I would. If BSA didn't exist for five years, it would be a huge political win for that President and gives that president the clout to talk about things being done for youth and for the outdoors.

If I played the game, what would happen if BSA went chapter 7 ... My big fear is that victims of the current settlement would get less and it would take much longer. Chapter 7 means no victim settlement and no funds anytime soon. Chapter 7 means hundreds of millions were spent trying to get a settlement, without success. A new set of lawsuits would start against the insurance companies. BSA chapter 11 bankruptcy pulls everyone together into a settlement. Without that, I could easily see every insurance company going on their own. The chapter 11 bankruptcy creates the opportunity for a collective liability shield. Without BSA needing that shield, I can't believe insurance companies would get a liability shield ... and thus I can't see insurance companies in a big settlement. New trials, negotiations, etc. Probably years down the road. Possibly outside bankruptcy courts? Company by company lawsuits? State by state? Insurance companies might save money by having it fought in many different venues over decades. What little could be collected from BSA in bankruptcy could go to higher priority debt owners. BSA retirement pension program would be in trouble ... especially now as I read some of that money was pulled in ... ??? ... I have been avoiding asking. Government owned pension guarantee company might be a debt owner at a higher priority level than victim lawsuits.

I don't think you can "declare" an act of congress ended. Laws can be found unconstitutional, but courts can't end laws. Congress would need to a pass a new bill ending the charter. ... And no President would want to have their name on the bill ending BSA. And few congressmen or senators would vote to end BSA. Until then, the current law states perpetual existence. Very much like laws. Laws have perpetual existence. Similar, BSA has perpetual existence. Even if BSA sold all assets, the company "BSA" has the right to continue. Time would wait for the next patriotic President of the United States to re-hydrate BSA. No act of Congress needed. The Congressional Charter exists until Congress (and the President) passes a new law voiding the Congressional Charter. ... It's one reason I don't think selling the intellectual property would raise any funds.

$1000 is for the youth scout who is very active. ... Add another $1000 for the very active parent ... or more as that active parent often introduces extra costs like neat gear, special extra foods, etc, etc. When I had four active kids in scouting where we did everything and sometimes in two or three different units, I'd bet we spent $5000 to $7000 a year. At least the cost of a major family vacation.

Thank you. I really appreciate the detail.

Ahhh ... that makes sense. Essentially, there is a transition time. To pay the settlement, an amount will be coming from new membership and scout shop sales. Such as parents paying dues for their seven-year-old to be a Tiger scout and then buying him a uniform and books. Or money from scouts attending national events and high adventure camps. ... The days of BSA having cash savings are in the past. The days of big donors won't exist while BSA is fundraising for a settlement. Money will be coming from the current and new kids and their parents.

"Standard" policies can be extended by special permission. In the past, units doing shooting sports training have worked with the camp, council and shooting sports credentialed leaders to bring unique or varied guns to camp. There were often limits such as the gun would not be shot; ammunition that fit the gun would not be brought; the gun would be secured when not being demonstrated; and, that the camp ranger and others would do a special check-in for the unit.

Agreed that future abuse after bankruptcy emergence is new liability. ... but is there some connection between the new liability / new financial awards and the settlement trust being created? Are future victims somehow pulled into this pending settlement? I just don't understand the details of @yknot saying "BSA is also on the hook to make some kind of continuing future contributions to the settlement"

"Looking backward, no" ... Yep. that's my understanding. "Forward, yes" ... I don't understand. Are you saying the post-bankruptcy BSA would pay into the bankruptcy trust for abuse that happened after the bankruptcy? ... I don't understand how that would work. Mixing trust dollars targeting past abuse with some type of money / protection for abuse yet to happen?

I've been following this from since it started. I'm amazed how much I still hear that I did not know and still can't understand. This is a bankruptcy. Old company legally stops existing and a legally new company exits bankruptcy. QUESTION - Would be the post-bankruptcy (successful bankruptcy) BSA be able to have any future liability ? I thought that violated the fundamentals of how bankruptcy works.

$100 plus monthly is a stopper. My ideal is the generic monthly camp out should (at that time) have been $20 or less. Now, $30 or less would be reasonable. Bigger adventures a few times a year are great, but few families can afford. Our "ideal" ... when I was in troop planning was that every patrol have every month an option for one camp out and one activity. Sometimes if at the troop level, then patrols often had the option of more than one camp out and more than one activity; such as patrol camp out and a troop camp out. Or a patrol game night and a troop swim night. or ... It's important to create opportunities for the scout as that's when lessons are learned and when a scout finds a reason to stay in scouts.

... Paid by BSA ... help me with my understanding. BSA is also paying costs for legal costs for those with claims and overhead. In addition, Omni, land appraisals. etc, etc. So, I'm reading it as BSA is not spending $13m per month defending itself or being oppositional. BSA is paying costs from many sides. ... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

$500k? Thousand or million? I originally heard BSA was bringing around $400m to the bankruptcy. I thought that was both proceedings and money that could be used to pay debts. ... reduces operating going forward ... I never understood that. It seems backwards. If money can be afforded to pay for the bankruptcy proceedings, then any unspent in that gray affordable money area that could be spent would be best sent to debtors ... or I thought I'd imagine. It goes to show that I really don't understand the ugly finances of a bankruptcy. I read the earlier list of who is billing what, but it really doesn't make sense to me still. QUESTION? ... $368m ... Can someone frame the court approved fee payments in a more basic primitive manor? administrative fees (appraisals, etc) versus BSA defense council fees versus victim advocate fees (TCC, etc) ? Or victim advocate fees routed through any of the BSA council invoices or are they completely separate?

@clbkbx ... What portion of the $368m are BSA side legal fees versus victim representative fees vs other fees ? If the court approves the fees, then it's the cost of the bankruptcy and reduces what was available at the start of the bankruptcy.

I greatly appreciate Eagle1993 adding the values together. The current fees are $368m. How much further will it go? six months more? a year? How much to setup and administer the trust? Assuming trust goes for years. What percent of individual awards go to the individual lawyers? BSA brought about $400m to the bankruptcy. So, fees will be at least 100% of the BSA bankruptcy. Effectively, the whole bankruptcy was re-invested / gambled as legal fees to negotiate with insurance companies. My big fear is ... If 3rd party releases are appealed and decided illegal and insurance companies withdraw, the available funds go to zero. ... The whole idea of large legal fee awards in cases like this is that the legal firms are taking on huge risk to pay the cost up front. ... I just don't see that in this case. I question whether we will ever understand how much went to the actual victims. I completely don't understand outside of pre-billed feels versus award sharing percentages. How much of individual awards will be split with their individual lawyers. If a victim gets awarded $100,000, will $25,000 / $30,000 go to their representing lawyer? If the lawyers firm billed fees in this case, will the lawyer also get a high percent of the award? Lower percent? No share?

Hope this will be allowed. I thought of BSA's bankruptcy when I listened to the settlement in the Florida condo collapse. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article265041154.html Lawyer hourly fees can have a 4.x multiplier in Florida The one year case had 17 law firms (132 attorneys, paralegals and assistants) who recorded 34,200 hours. ... Image of Tom Cruise Xeroxing time sheets in the Firm. Melded rate (attorney, paralegals, assistants) of $715 ... expensive paralegals and assistants. Total $24.7 million. Could have been 4.5x resulting in $100m legal fees. Judge awarded 3x for multiplier - awarded $65m legal fees Settlement was $1.1 billion Attorney fees were 6.5 % of settlement. A success considering normal 25% to 30% fees. Lots to discuss even in this case, but at least victims families did well in the settlement. Made me think about BSA's bankruptcy.

IMHO, the press repeating "fully funded" would be a continuation of the press loosely and sloppily using words to make interesting a relatively boring story about small steps in a long-running court case. We've seen that repeatedly in this case (and really most news events). I always fear press interpretations and prefer using it to get the facts. The story is the potential settlement took a small step forward, but also faced a few objections that need resolution. In this case, I see no reason why insurers would contribute if they can't get protection from future settlements / demands. Saying it's fully funded in a way to protect insurers seems very important.

I'm not suggesting to eliminate the MBs pamphlets. I'm not suggesting rewriting the requirements ... except to reduce the number of words and reduce the legalism. I'm saying the MBs should reflect more social interaction and more activity. Though okay as a fallback, I don't want to send scouts away to read a MB pamphlet.

Back to the heart of scouting. Outings and social interactions. Canoeing MB? Go canoeing. Hold the paddle. During the trip, show a j-stroke and how to properly enter and exit the canoe. Discuss the names and parts of the canoe. Bicycling MB? Go biking and fix a tire and etc, etc. Camping MB? Go camping. Work thru the requirement details in a one-on-one basis. Citizen of the nation MB? Have the conversations. Go visit historical sites. Have the discussions. MB pamphlets should be the fall back, but not the main path. Scouting is not school with assigned text books and worksheets. MB pamphlets are better for the MBC than for the scout. More like the teacher's answer guide.

Troop stopped maintaining MB book library. Extremely rarely used. Just not worth the effort. I flip-flop. Price is too much. I fear inflation pushing price even higher. It's not thifty. Also, the MB book practice is anachronistic in an online society. When scouts are driven and motivated, they won't pick up a physical book. They go-online fast. On the flip side, there is something about a physical book. Opening and seeing pictures and words with fixed locations on paper and the words will still be in that exact spot the next day. I remember the eco building with their books where scouts would work. Scouts did often open those books. ... BUT ... they opened the books when idle and absorbing the eco center. .... They never opened the books when pushed to earn a badge. As a MBC, I just can't honestly recommend the scouts get the MB book. Scouts are to learn the topic; not pushed to spend money.

We've done that too. Always was a great event. To avoid multiple setup/tear down, we chose an area with multiple activities / options ... then found a centrally located camp site (state park, national forest, private). Scouts that still wanted the standard, every-year summer camp option. They felt robbed if they could not repeat the same summer camp each year. Our "ideal" pattern was ... did not happen perfectly every year. Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - troop standard summer camp commitment. Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - patrol sized high adventure Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - troop low adventure summer camp ... similar to stated in previous post Required lots of parental support and a healthy number of leaders.

Referring to future court cases. LDS & scouting was tightly integrated. I don't see how court cases can be cleanly scouting or church. ... It feels like a future court case nightmare. ... I'm wondering how lawyers interpret liability if in one view has bankruptcy protection and the other doesn't.

So, the debate then will always be ... was it church based or was it scouting based. I can understand why they want to still be in the bankruptcy as a participating CO.