fred8033

Yes. BOR has that option. IMHO, a scout not participating in a BOR can and probably does trigger suspending the BOR. ... The key is it's to be extremely rare that a BOR faces saying NO the requirements have not been fulfilled. Missing badge? Short on POR time ? All badge signed by the dad? ... The BOR triggering this condition is to be very rare.

I'm on withdrawal. Any news / update?

Yep. 100%. Adventures does not mean expensive. Perhaps it's a rarely used local/regional spot (museum, park, etc) that has a related open area where you can also grill hot dogs for lunch. I view adventure as getting away from "meetings" to do something. Be active. Often, the adventure is waiting to be discovered.

Thank you. I had to find the reference. I was surprised. https://4-hshootingsports.org/#:~:text=Each year%2C 4-H teaches,boys and girls each year.

I'd like to see numerical comparison (seriously). Almost every scout that goes to summer camp experiences the shooting sports programs. I'm not aware of 4-H having shooting ranges or a broadly offered program. I appreciate your post. Thank you.

Preferred? It's actually not. Handguns first. Second is an AR-15 styled riffle. The AK47 riffle is an outlier ... from what I've read. Depending on "mass shooting" definition, you will see it's one use every several years to less used. As of May 2022, this noted a previous use from 2019. Rest were handguns or AR-15 styled. https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-05-27/mass-shooters-exploited-gun-laws-loopholes-before-carnage ... Perhaps, it's better said that "assault styled" weapons are the preferred firearm. But that is not useful either as it's way, way overly broad as it can include many handguns today too. Not used in competitions and practices? ... From what I've read ... it's because the AK-47 is not known for accuracy. Marksmanship and competitions would not use an AK-47 gun. If the teaching moment is awareness of styles of guns, teh AK-47 seems appropriate. World-wide the AK-47 is more common than AR-15 ... from what I've read.

My experience is BSA does a solid job. Perhaps, the Guide to Safe Shooting and it's implementation needs to be revisited yet again to remove remaining quality control variances that can allow incidents to happen. ... Perhaps should 1st graders be allowed to use any type of bow and arrow or bb-gun? I'm not sure. Sadly, BSA is the only national level organization that broadly offers a youth shooting sports activity. I doubt the YMCA will expand to pick up the responsibility. Kids benefit from physical exposure to guns and how to safely handle them. It removes the mystic and teaches knowledge and responsibilities.

Any SM worth their salt would support a scout that comes motivated with information and a plan. Research. Plan. Promote. Make it happen. That's huge and is what scouting is about. ... If you are excited about it, then find a way to make it happen. I'm betting you can find one or more adults (parents??) that would be willing to support your efforts.

IMHO, this is the telling statement. SM should have a SMC and ask about the role. If the SPL is not interested, then look for another. Or you don't even need an SPL with a small troop. IMHO, SPL does not have to go to NYLT or another training course or even be a XXX year or XXX rank scout. SM can coach the new SPL. They key is to find the scout that wants to be SPL. My advice feels like a broken record. Find a solution that works for your unit, but get the troop active and doing interesting things. That is what drives excited scouts.

Strictly speaking, no it's not too late. ... depending on vendor ... To do it well, it needs planning in August/September. Pack hands out sales materials before October 1st. Scouts selling in October. Order placed with vendor around Oct 31st to Nov 5th; delivery just after thanksgiving. BUT ... maybe you can find a vendor with a great on-line sales site. THEN, your pack can advertise via Facebook, twitter, emails, etc and people order directly from the site and your pack gets a cut. I've seen that happen recently too. So, it might not be too late, but it's a razors edge close to too late. Wishing you the best.

Welcome A charter org willing to financially support a cub pack is a very rare thing. For any and every check you get, be very, very thankful. Budgeting is a great idea. I always used my own spreadsheet. Find an existing template to start. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-278_wb.pdf https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/xls/13-273.xls ... excel spreadsheet version https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/04/05/create-budget-pack-troop-crew/ ... good article Google. You will find lots of great examples Plan to have some carry over money to keep the pack going. For example, never drop checking below XXXX ($500??) Per-scout or per-family charge for some items (camps, special activities, special awards). It's okay to not buy or do everything. Example - Pack doesn't have to buy the cub books or scarfs or belt loops. Maybe pack pays for key awards, but not the extras. Ten years ago, our pack would spend somewhere between $180 and $250 per scout per year (spreading all costs including adult registration costs) ... BUT that was before registration prices increased. Our spend changed depending on how much we raised. Idea was we spent funds raised on the current scouts with enough preserved to keep the pack an on-going concern. We charged $60 or more and raised the rest. BE THRIFTY. Look for free events. Look for cost savings. Pot-luck events. Cheap spaces to use. I wanted to ask about $300 behind ... but $300 is a small amount these days. Questions Is your COR offering a one-time additional funding? Or on-going support? Have your families donated to help the pack? (my opinion) It's important to have the families have some amount of financial skin in the game. Do your leaders help support their own registration? ... Some units have the unit pay for the key, key roles. But additional registrations are paid by the adults. ... This concept may have changed as BSA registration expectations have changed. Have you considered fundraising other than popcorn? Wreaths are probably too late. Christmas candy? Other? I'm often wondering about costs these days. In the past, we could easily spread the cost of 10 registered leaders across 50 or 60 cubs; especially as adult registration cost was cheap; $7 to $10 to $14 to $24 per adult. But adult registration cost was cheap and few adults were needed. Now, it feels like 50% of the adults would have to be registered and cost is $66 or more per adult. BSA membership now feels financially prohibitive. Interesting breakdown ... https://scoutsmarts.com/scouting-costs-registration-gear-uniforms-fees/

Lots of great advice above. Your response sounds reasonable. I'd also recommend to keep watching. Kids at his age feel lots of pressure.

Don't push too much formalism onto the scouts. Celebrate their planning. Your job is a loose one. Is committee / COR comfortable with their plans? ... i.e. no sky diving with paint ball guns? camping on Dec 25th? ... conflicts. safety. budget. ... Beyond that, your job is to help the troop infrastructure support the scout's plans. CC & SM should partner to decide how and how much to support the scouts. Sometimes committee reserves and pays for camping sites; buys more tents; coordinates cars; publishes schedules; processes advancement. Other troops, scouts do a lot of that. SM & CC should work to find the right balance to make the scout's program shine.

@Jmatt0613 ... @InquisitiveScouter is exactly right. This is not a winning battle for you. The adults are treating you as unwelcome. I don't see a recovery path. ... DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A PERSONAL HIT AGAINST YOU. Use this as a lesson on group dynamics. They don't view you as an equal. They are running the program for their kids and other under-age youth. You are not viewed as an adult or a parent. Life is filled with transitions. Don't be scared. It is time to cut your ties to the troop. Find somewhere else to spend your time. Hopefully, the future has a scouting path. BUT, it might also be outside scouting. Your future can be good both inside and outside scouting.

I'd argue younger siblings were already enjoying scouting when packs had family events. K, 1st and 2nd got to see the pack and experience the benefits. ... There is relatively little special about cubs in the very, very early years. The only loss is BSA membership revenue for those three years. But those gains are made up in big membership loses in later years. If I had to do it over again, I would have started my sons in scouting in 3rd or 4th grade. Nothing would have been lost. Younger siblings would have been able to participate in plenty of pack events.

That may be your troop's approach. There is zero requirement for the scout to present to a unit committee. We could waste a debate on if that is an extra requirement. But that's a different topic. The Eagle project proposal review can be as simple as the scout approaching the CC asking for a signature and then the CC asking the scout "what am I signing? tell me about it" Could be two minutes. Could be twenty. There is zero requirement to present to a unit committee.

So so many parts here. I'll probably add and edit. #1 Yes, a BOR can choose to not pass a scout. ... I've seen hundreds and hundreds of BORs. The scout should not fail. If a BOR chooses to not advance the scout, the scout needs to be told in writing why. ... in this case, it's clear. The scout did not participate in the BOR. ... The scout not answering one question should NOT be a reason. The scout not actively participating in the BOR is a reason. ... BUT, any adult worth being on a BOR should be able to solicit the scout's participation. Any adult on the BOR should also be asking why did this happen. ... it begs the next question ... #2 ... What is the scout's history? What happened? Did the scout not trust the BOR adults? To get to a Life BOR, the scout passed at least five BORs. What is different this time? ... I'd want the SM and other adults to honestly reflect on this. ... Did the CC or another BOR adults chew the scout out previously? Lose trust? Did some adult treat the scout unfairly? ... even if just in the scout's view? How did the scout pass several and now fail? ... I'd also ask are some of the BOR adults normally interacting with the scout (camping, MBs, troop mtgs)? If so, they should not be on the BOR. ... Similar ... why did the SM think a non-troop BOR was needed? It smells like the SM knows the cause / reason. #3 Is a completely non-troop BOR acceptable? No and yes. BSA Guide To Advancement has the rules ... to be mixed with a kind heart by the adults. GTA section 8.0.2.0 does say it is to be 3 to 6 unit committee members. Since the BOR exists for many reasons, including improving the troop, the rule is clearly to use troop committee members. That said, this is not really unusual. We help the scouts. We solve people issues when people clash. ... I do fear the SM doing an end-around the committee clearly subverts explicit roles. What should happen next? CC refuses to sign the scout's Eagle application? CC protests an advancement report to the council? ... SM should not have set up an alternative BOR. That's absolutely NOT the SM's job. GTA explicitly says it's the unit committee job to be guided/assigned by the troop committee chair. The CC could make a fuss about this BOR as the CC has real grounds. The unit leaders did not advance the scout. .... BUT ... IMHO ... that would be absolutely, absolutely wrong. This specific scout participated in a Life BOR. It's done. Period. Let it sit. We don't fight adult battles using the scouts. #4 BOR purpose is to give the unit feedback ... The unit committee got a huge ugly feedback dump by the scout AND the SM. The unit is doing badly. ... The question now is how does the unit committee fix the troop? That's the CC/COR responsibility. Honestly, should the CC/COR remove the SM? The CC/COR has clear cause. ... We don't penalize scouts, but we do remove adults that can't work together. OR, is there a unit committee member (or members) that are not working well together and they need to leave? IMHO ... SM found a solution, but may have created more issues. There is clearly a problem between the scout, the SM, the unit CC and the unit committee members. Those adults better have some honest conversations soon about unresolved issues that will keep escalating.

You are pointing out that a Guide To Safe Scouting can be ridiculous. I 100% agree that laser tag should be allowed. NOTE: AS LEADERS, WE HAVE PLEDGED TO FOLLOW IT. It's part of our honor to do that ... and with grumbling with laser tag. To me, the eSports tournament is fine. It's really not a significant debate to me. Scouts want it. They are doing it. I'd be happy my son was trying to connect with a larger group. We each judge a boundaries differently. Laser tag is obviously not an issue to me. I like your comment because it reminds me that I really had my sons in scouts to teach them to be men. Responsibility. Adventures. Hardship. Recognizing they can do really hard things. ... I see zero issue with eSports or laser tag. Laser tag is running around, sweating and competing. We should celebrate it; not ban it. ... .... BIG BIG TANGENT ... Personally, I wish my sons (and the rest of the scouts) could have done some of the earlier activities to toughen them up. Bring back British Bulldog. Bring back a revised master-at-arms MB and boxing tournaments. We want our scouts to stand up to wrong. That also means to teach them they will survive taking a punch. ... IMHO, it's why scouting was respected years ago. Scouts were confident and tough.

Yeah, Minecraft would have been a big win too. The Minecraft purpose and game idea baffles me, but it's been continually popular for ?? ten years ??.

I think this is brilliant. Connects with the younger generations. Many adults in the 20s and even early 30s often see eSports tournaments bigger than NFL, etc. https://www.google.com/search?q=image+esports+tournaments&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjd3qXV5Lz6AhVuazABHU9dABUQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=image+esports+tournaments&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1DsCljqD2DzEWgAcAB4AIABdogB5gOSAQMzLjKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=KwU3Y52dOO7WwbkPz7qBqAE&bih=833&biw=1706&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS1008US1009 I still remember the first time I saw the Las Vegas Luxor (huge casino) permanently rebranded as an eSports venue. BSA eSports tournaments could ... Promotes fellowship Promotes competition. A chance for youth to aspire in the same way they see nation wide trends If rightly used, a way for troops to be more involved with their scouts. I remember multiple times Scouts at troop campfires planning online / video gaming events AND ... Scouts at troop video gaming events planning their next campout Video gaming is the new poker, canasta, uker, hearts, spades, pokemon, yugio, etc, etc. It's just part of their lives. It's really not that big of an issue. ... It would be big if this replaces a troop's outdoor program and activities.

It's slight wording like this that would make me hesitate to give permission. Asserting a parent wants to be isolated is a biased and belittling view of the parents opinion. ... I probably would give permission as my son would be boxed in. I'd truly have contempt for the situation. I'd reluctantly and grudgingly give permission. People can have real differences of opinion while being well informed and connected to society. I was in a discussion this last weekend. I expressed an opinion that was based on what I've seen and read. Instead of discussion and trying to work true the details, it was asserted I must be watching bad news sources. That similarly subverts the MB and can teach bad lessons. The scout knows the MB is looking for larger differences. I'm not sure this would teach a good lesson. BUT, it would get out of the dog house. IMHO ... scouts has a purpose of teaching how government works. Scouts should not get into controversial topics.

Well written article. Similar articles (won't list now) on the poor press coverage of such incidents. The press really coverage really added little. It stopped because no one likes unjustly being accused of being mean.

@qwazse ... We are really too far removed from the specifics to judge either direction on "truth". Inferring either way is useless. Inferring it's okay for unit leaders to routinely second guess a MBC is just bad and does NOT have any standing in the GTA. Future leaders would do well to read GTA for rules and intent. ... The rule is a MBC is the final judge on if the MB is done; not the unit leader. Unit leaders are not to second guess requirement wording / specifics / etc. As this escalated so fast, there is more going on than this discussion thread can handle.

@nolesrule ... Speaking from experience. Your scout's career is short. You have a three month suspension. You're banned from troop meetings. Then add another six months to get back to normal. Another year to stop looking over your shoulder waiting for the next problem to drop. Yet another year to build trust. And risk that it will never recover. IMHO ... move on. Things might recover, but all events for the next year will be tainted at best. It's just not worth putting your child in the middle of your pain to fix this situation. Plus, your child might benefit from seeing you leave a bad situation. ... every decision has many results and many lessons ... If your scout has an option for a strong girls troop near by, have her join. You can just be a parent and enjoy life as a scouting parent. If already established in venturing, focus on that. For those from this mess ... Be humble and kind and warm hearted when you see these people in the future. Own up to your own mistakes. Avoid reminding them of their mistakes. Even though you won't be in the same unit, try to heal the relationships. Strange thing is that scouters often re-encounter each other. I am not saying you are wrong. IMHO, if the camp issued the MB, it's done. ... but reality is this should never have escalated like it did. ... what can be done different? ... Perhaps, step back and enjoy a more personal role with your scout. Sneak a few treats together. Watch a sunset together. Go on an extra hike together. Beyond that, let others lead for a bit. ... I say that because when I've gone thru messes like this, it really damages confidence. My reactions can be based more on emotion than logic or common sense. Small issues get escalated. ... It takes time to get reground and move past events like this. Just enjoy the time. ... Being a leader is like being in a relationship. Takes time to build and grow. When it crashes, jumping into a new leadership role won't go well. Give it time.

You are right. That's what I've seen too. Council invests to help recruit. I was thinking from running the pack. Council did little to help run a pack.