fred8033

Not sure how to interpret G2SS for squirt guns ... but ... baning squirt guns and laser tag is silly. Period. It's so silly it's even hard to have a fact based discussion on the topic. Here's a few things to think about.... Join soccer, football or baseball. My eight year old's soccer clinic and team regularly had squirt gun fights after practice to cool down. They loved it. Bet he remembers that soccer camp for years. Our scouts regularly play laser tag. It's unofficial. No uniforms. Near by pack webelos often join us. Including one or two parents from the council shooting sports committee. They are careful not to let anyone know they are on that committee. But they love laser tag. They roll their eyes at the laser tag rule ... because they have an IQ higher than a rock. Adding silly rules to a critical document like G2SS waters down the other rules. Ignoring youth protection rules damages people forever. Ignoring aquadics rules and people die. Ignoring the laser tag rule has very very little risk other than maybe needing to fill out an application as a soccer coach to spend your free time and have fun. Banning laser tag (and if appicable squirt gun fights) teaches scouts very little about gun safety or muzzle control. It teaches alot about it being okay to ignore rules selectively. If appearing militaristic is the issue, we should eliminate the Chess academic pin and belt loop. Chess was created to teach military tactics and prepare leaders for war. I can respect people who think laser tag and/or squirt guns are boring. Fine. Not your cup of tea. I just can't respect the opinion that the activities are not acceptable. That's silly. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

jtswestark wrote: "how aggravating the part time leaders can be that take themselves and Scouting too seriously" So true! I was driving my 17 year old son to staff cub camp last night and we were talking. He said the worse part about scouts (as a staffer or a youth) are the adults that take the whole thing just too seriously. It creeps him out. I whole heartedly agree. Cozy vs formal It really depends. Formal for money (scout accounts, treasurer statements, ...), health forms, permission slips, youth protection and advancement (POR ... are we at six months or five months 29 days). You need to get some things consistently right or it creates problems. Cozy for other things where a friendly agreement to work together can make things work. Meetings. Decisions. Agendas.

Leave the advancement legalism for Boy Scouts. It will come soon enough. For this discussion thread, I think it is important to differentiate between Boy Scout advancement and Cub Scout advancement. Though both are theoretically the same, there is a difference. "Do your best" is key in Cub Scouts. We want cubs to have a positive experience that provides growth (skills, responsibility, maturity, social, ...) but also encourages transition to Boy Scouts. So for Webelos advancement, I'd look to find a way to make the pins be a great experience and not just a check list to get done. For a Cub Scout with special needs, work with the parents to find a way so that the cub scout gets value out of the program. It might be skills or other personal growth. Or it might just be friendships, a safe environment and a positive experience. That's fine too.

"spirit of the law" ... great comment. That's dead on right. The BOR is to celebrate and inspire the scout. As such, we want to get the BOR's done as soon as possible after the scout requests one. Plus, the reason for committee members is that the BOR is the quality control for the troop program (not for the scout). Parents and others can serve that function too even though it's not ideal. Youth on a BOR? I'm fairly new (10 years), but I've never seen that mentioned in the ACPP. I know troops that include youth as members of their BORs. It's clearly different than how BSA "currently" documents the BOR process and requirements. Plus personally, I don't care for it. Like adults talk about BORs after-the-fact, scouts will gossip. I can see one scout making fun of another scout because of something said in a BOR. Any smart youth going for advancement would just shut down on any significant comments. I know the key reason is to work toward "youth led", but I have a hard time buying that when that's not how BSA describes it. Most importantly, the key person in the BOR is the scouting going for rank.

INTERROGATION - As for this specific incident... Completely inappropriate. It's abusive. Period. It will be the most vivid memory of camp for all those scouts and probably the trigger to end more than one scouting experience. If the camp staffers really feel it's that significant, work with the unit leaders, call the cops or throw us out of camp. As a unit leader ... If I was feeling at all uncomfortable with what they were doing, I'd put a stop to it. In fact, I'd try to understand what they were going to do BEFORE the interrogations started. I'd hope I could re-route the process to something less damaging. It took me a long time as the unit leader to develop expertise and get comfortable with telling other adults and staffers NO. If you represent a scouting unit, you are responsible for those scouts. Not the camp staffers. Not the leaders of another troop. In our troop, I hope our units have purged out habits based on humiliating, intimidating or pressuring scouts. Unfortunately, other units regularly use those habits to run their troops. JAMBOREE - I've heard too many interesting stories about Jamboree incidents (shower houses, intimidation, punishments, treating scouts like little kids, ...). I can easily see how tensions rise and incidents happen. I won't send any of my other sons to a Jamboree or recommend any scouts in my units go unless I can be a leader or personally have seen all the adult leaders in action. It's risking too much at too much of a cost.

Apply the Scout Oath and Law. Apply the BSA goal of being a responsible citizen. This is a classic ethics dilemma. A staffer stuck in the middle between higher ups saying to use multi-year expired food, manufacturers saying it's not good after the expiration date and a customer that depends on you. At some point, I have to ask myself if I'm being responsible, trustworhty, loyal, helpful, ...? Am I doing my duty to God and my country? Is it the right thing to do? It's also a textbook legal question. Did anyone publish a written document saying that the three-year expird food is still good? Or is it just a rumor? Was the decision based on food facts or financial facts? Every worker has responsibilies associated with their job. Are you liable as a food industry worker if you know the packaging says it expired three years ago? Plus ... scouts deserve better than expired food.

Last time we did Disney, it was $70 something per person. Now, if you walk up to the gate, it's $85 per person (10 years and up) and $79 (3 years old to 9 years old) !!!! But the park is always full. So I guess they can charge what they want to charge. No wonder that mouse is always smiling. For our pack, we don't charge for camping. It's free to the families except the park pass for each car. The park group site is cheap at $45 per night. Food is potluck with pack supplying $200 worth of hamburgers and hotdogs. It's a great program and we want people to come. For our troop, most of our camps are $30 per person with $10 to $12 dedicated for food. Also, state parks are far cheaper. Our scout camps have a per camper fee that breaks the bank.

Lions was a positive experience in our pack this last year. Of the 10 lion cubs, we're getting all 10 back. I also agree with the view of too much coddling. I think that is where we lose too many scouts. Promise adventure. Deliver mundane. I've seen it at our family camps repeatedly. The 4th and 5th graders are bored doing a program setup for the lowest common denominator, tigers and now lions. Each rank needs increased challenges. The best advice I've seen recently is to run Webelos similar to Boy Scouts. Include youth leadership. Include youth planning. Include hikes, camping, outings....

IMHO ... If the scout is wearing his uniform says something 60% about him and 40% about his family. If the uniform has all the right decorations says something 30% about the scout and 70% about his family. It's the rare scout that puts his own patches on his shirt. Just my opinion. In my house, it's not unusual to have a morning hunt between five bedrooms for the right size of shirts, socks and underwear. It's common to have excitement before scout meetings trying to find the right scout shirt. Every family's different.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Everything in ACPP page 29 about BOR uniforming is a "should". A requirement is a SHALL or MUST. For example from the ACPP ... "The decision of the board of review is arrived at through discussion and MUST be unanimous." Or ... "At least one district or council advancement representative SHALL be a member of the Eagle board of review, ...." I applaud positive encouragement, rewarding uniforming and leading by example. I just don't believe in the opposite site of it.

Stick with spreadsheets. Microsoft Excel or GoogleDocs. Our pack has $30,000 going through checking every year and we only use Excel. QuickBooks or accounting packages need dedication and expertise beyond the average volunteer. If your an accountant already, go for it. Just don't expect to hand it off successfully. I tried GnuCash. I was very underwhelmed. Keep it simple and quick. Make it easy to hand-off.

Work with your CC to make him comfortable with it. Maybe ask about what you and the ASMs can do to minimize distractions during the committee meeting. Or ... I'd rather not call it a "power play" as much as someone trying to do it by the book or someone learning the job or someone trying to find a way to run the meeting. Also, UC's (bless their heart) sometimes make suggestions that need more context to integrate. The UC was absolutely correct by the book, but it shouldn't be an issue if someone else sits in.

Scouting is generally an "open" activity. No secret societies. No hidden processes or procedures. "Normal" on-going activities (troop meetings and committee meetings) should be open for observance. Camps and other outings are generally open as long as we don't detract from youth interacting with youth. Dealing with "sensitive" person-specific issues can require privacy at times to avoid creating a larger problem, to avoid gossip and to protect reputations. With that said, why would you document who can NOT attend? Heck, most scout groups I know don't vote on things. It's more by general consensus .

"Great council promotion website. Easy to use with multiple options for searching. How does your council get the word out to the community about the website?" The AdventureIsCalling.org site is promoted on every flier and anything resembling recruitment material. Also, it's been called out on TV, radio and web. Here's the best commercial that was used for it. http://www.scoutinggoodforlife.org Very touching ad. The council marketing director does a 1st class job between centenial events, jamboree events and such. My favorite was a Lego convention from last month. I was very proud of my son and the service he provided. http://www.northernstarbsa.org/News.aspx?articleID=964 I believe the council Facebook site has other TV commercials that have played. But the earlier mentioned one is by far the best.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

"Somewhere along the line deep in District Lore we picked up the notion that the Eagle Project Planning should be complete enough if the Scout could not complete the project, another scout could pick up the plan and follow it to completion" I've often wondered about this too. It's a pretty universally accepted statement. BUT, can we hold up a scout because they don't provide that level of detail even if we think they have good grasp of their project? While it seems like a good idea (documenting such that another scout can complete the project from the plan), I've never found it in BSA requirements or the Eagle Scout Leaderhip Service Project Workbook. The ESLSPW requirements are complete by definition of it being the authoritative document. But it doesn't mention that level of detail. Also, it doesn't have the space or format for such a detailed write up. I'm not against it really. I am curious though when I see obstacles that can hold up a scout that are not based on explicit BSA requirements.

If your troop is like most troops, your real challenge will not be switching to official BSA publications. The real challenge would be changing troop practices to meet the scouting program as documented by the BSA. #1 Keep it brief. Anything too long just won't be read. #2 Document carefully that which is unique to your troop - practice ---- where and when the troop meets - Money ---- dues, prorating, boys life subscriptions, ... ---- how fundraiser profits are divided ---- when money is refunded ---- if and when you pay for milage ---- reimbursement process / forms / accounting - policies ---- cell phone policies ---- soda pop policies ---- knife policies (no machettees and such) - discipline ---- IMHO, ... not really needed beyond simple friendly statement about scout oath and law ... ---- what if things break ... who's liable. - gear ---- packing list / don't bring list ---- tents (who's are used, can scouts use their own, - expectations ---- parents (support, camping, support, roles, ...) ---- scouts (oath and law, please don't document attendance percentages ....) #3 Add a short executive summary guide for parents that quickly points to sources of more information. Best practice is to google until you find one you like. Then borrow and change to match your troop. #4 Document the sources of the official information #5 Put copies of the BSA official publications in your troop library #6 For everything else ... usually redocumenting only raises more questions and adds confusion. If you do need to do document though, you could have paragraph headers such as "Advancement - Service projects". Then the first thing, reference the source and include the quote. For example.... Per BSA "Advancement committee policies and procedures" (BSA publication 33088, ISBN 978-0-8395-3088-6).... Second Class Rank For the Second Class rank, a Scout must participate in a service project or projects approved by his Scoutmaster. The time of service must be a minimum of one hour. This project prepares a Scout for the more involved service projects he must perform for the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks. Star and Life Ranks ... ... ... #7 Or you could approach it as a FAQ section that quickly references the official source. #8 Or have it as an online document with hyperlinks to the official sources for further reading.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

ANNUAL PLANNING SESSION - Our big focus is reflection and making improvements. Similar to STOP, START, CONTINUE. What isn't working? What should we start doing? What should we continue doing. Another form of Roses, Thorns and Buds. - Much of our year is cookie cutter. We try to work in a little variety. - We try to get each den to step up a level to reflect that their kids are more mature. Webelos don't want to do the same things they did as Tigers. - We try to work in service projects during the year. One in fall. one in spring. Two or three during the summer. Make them fun too! PACK CAMP OUTS - Our fall and spring (june) camp outs are FREE. Parent's have already spent enough and the # one thing we want is to get the kids to camp. And parents need to pay $5 per car to get into the park. Pack budgets $250 to $300 per camp out for food, location and equipment. Parents are to bring a dish to share. - Our focus is getting them to the camp! We try to work in den advancements and awards. That usually makes parents get off the sofa.

I think BeAScout.org is just not promoted enough or correctly. We've received dozens of calls over the years from our council unit promotion web site. http://AdventureIsCalling.org Not a single call from anyone using BeAScout.org. But then again, the council does not promote BeAScout.org and has for many years promoted the AdventureIsCalling.org site. Plus, the old version of BeAScout.org was hard to use, slow and clunky. The AdventureIsCalling.org is quick and also includes unit mapping if you punch in your home address. Try it with zip code 55125. For a map, search using "1584 Hadley Avenue North, Oakdale, MN 55128"

I don't really care one way or another ... and I definitely prefer almost any other tent over the BSA canvas wall tents ... BUT ... as long as our summer camp provides free tents and does not provide a significant discount if we don't use them, why would we use our own? It's basic economics. Our troop uses troop owned tents (Eureka Timberline 4xt ... moving to the Timberline SQ 4xt model). They cost $250 to $270 each. 40 scouts. 20 tents. Seven nights at camp? We would have at least one damaged beyond repair; two or three significantly damanged and all experiencing signficant wear. Plus, then getting them dried out and collected once we got back home. Considering this, using camp tents is about $400 dollars cheaper for the troop .... probably more. And it's less headache and cheaper to use camp owned tents. And yes ... every BSA canvas tent I've slept in leaks and is too hot. Scouts routinely bring large tarps to hang over them and to put under them. If these tents were gone, there is one thing I'd really miss. After a good storm, it's always fun to see the contents of several tents blown completely out of the tent.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I posted to another thread discussing this topic. I've read much about failing units and the scouter suggestions how to fix them. There's always good suggestions, but I keep thinking the heart of the issue is being missed. #1 Unit commisioners. Yeah right. It's always brought up. Over the last ten years, I've been involved in three units. When the pack I just joined was in trouble, I asked multiple times for a UC. It was like pulling teeth to get anyone at all to show up to help when the pack was on life support. I did get a professional staffer to visit but that was five years ago. I have not seen hide nor hair of a UC or anyone else since then. Or even any professional non-unit leader visiting our pack. I'm sure some UC do a great job, but I've yet to see a single one. I've heard of several who stepped far beyond the UC role with the units they visited and caused problems. As far as I'm concerned ... and my apologies to any successful UC corps out there .... The UC concept is fundamentally and permanently broken. BSA at the national level needs to re-evaluate the UC goals and re-engineer the program. As it is now, the UC program is a joke. SUGGESTION - Replace the UC corps with a sharing concept. Require each committee chair and each unit leader (CM, SM, ...) to separately visit another unit's pack/troop meeting and another unit's committee meeting ... every year. The DE would assign visits to share good examples and create mentoring between unit leaders. Never visiting the same unit year after year. Never flooding a unit with too many visitors. Ideally, each unit is visited twice each year; once at a pack/troop meeting and once at a planning meeting. As an incentive, add it as a requirement for the adult leader recognition knots. #2 Scouter training and job descriptions forget the social side of scouting. The units that figure it out on their own are successful. Those that don't are always begging for volunteers. It's critical to get the adults to socialize, become friends and enjoy each other's company. The goal is to bond and make the volunteering fun, fulfilling and not a burden. Heck, if it works .... you make life long friends. The best part is that people will volunteer to help a friend without even being asked. SUGGESTION - The committee chair (or another position) should be tasked with getting the adult leaders to build friendships and to bond for a common goal. And no, not to the point of "en flagrante indelicato." The easiest way is to invite everyone out for a quick drink after every monthly committee meeting. Or play a few games of hearts, cribbage, or other at camp EVERY NIGHT when possible. #3 I think some units see how busy everyone is and they pair down the program. It's common sense, but opposite of what creates a successful program. The more busy and rich the pack schedule, the more families you will recruit and retain and the more volunteers you will get. Parents want their kids busy with things that develop their values, skills, friends and gets them out of the house. ... and affordable .... People want to volunteer to be part of a successful program. Most importantly, if the pack / troop doesn't provide a rich fulling program, something else will (sports, karate, ....). #4 Every unit needs to tap the scouting background of their parents. Our pack has thrived as we have convinced our Eagle scout parents to step up to help.

I had a similar situation a few years ago when our house was assigned to a new school, our former Tiger / new Wolf cub joined their pack. I volunteered in the fall and all the leaders quit at the B&G, a natural transition time. I didn't realize the pack had trouble. The adults were burnt out from starting a new pack and just waiting for someone to step forward to continue the pack. They felt abandoned by their council. The pack dropped to just below twenty kids from 60+. We are back at 60+ cubs now, but it took three or so years. From my experience... - AT-LARGE CALLS FOR VOLUNTEERS DOESN'T WORK. It's too much like using guilt trips. It's a self-defeating method and destructive to the mood and moral of the pack. - SIMPLIFY YOUR CALENDAR until things turn around. Do the critical stuff. Pack meetings. Den meetings. Attend summer camp. Keep it simple. KEEP IT FUN. Let the other things go. You might even consider shutting down the pack (except attending summer camps) and starting fresh in the fall. - DROP THE ACTIVITY if you don't have a volunteer... including canceling the pinewood derby, pack family overnights, special events and even Blue and Gold. - CONSIDER ALTERNATIVES ----- EXAMPLE: If you don't have enough people to run a big Blue and Gold, just find a simple fun spot (open area tables at a community center, indoor park, outdoor park, ... ideally free) get a few pizzas and wa-la you have a blue and gold banquet. Just find a way to get everyone together in a quiet corner for a few minutes for awards, cross over and normal pack meeting stuff) ----- EXAMPLE: If you don't have enough people to run your own pinewood derby, your pack attends the district pinewood derby. Warn the district why you are doing it though. Just say that essentially because of small membership numbers, your pack can't run their own derby and that your pack qualifies all your cubs to advance to districts. When your pack grows, start doing your own derby again. HERE ARE THE TWO KEYS that I saw helping our pack recover to the best pack I've ever seen. - Get the adults to socialize, become friends and enjoy each other's company. The goal is to bond and make the volunteering fun, fulfilling and not a burden. Heck, if it works .... you make life long friends. The best part is that people will volunteer to help a friend without even being asked. The easiest way is to invite everyone out for a quick drink after every monthly committee meeting. - (this goes opposite to what I said earlier) The more busy and full the pack schedule, the more families you will recruit and retain and the more volunteers you will get. Parents want their kids busy with things that develop their values, skills, friends and gets them out of the house. People want to volunteer to be part of a successful program. Our pack tries to have a pack meeting each month, one or two den meetings per den and at least once major pack event each month. Sep - Family overnight camp. Oct - Halloween party. Nov - Volunteer service event. Dec - Varied. Jan - Ice skating party. Jan - Sledding event. Feb - council day camp. Feb Blue and Gold. march - pinewood derby. April & May - varied. June - family pack overnight. Jun/Jul/Aug - School garden cleanup nights, summer camps, pack picnic... By varied I mean, pack visits to planitariums, magic shows, nature centers, train museums and almost anything we can find.

I'm the pack committee chair and in my 20th year of marriage to the current Tiger Den leader. It does cause marital stress especially during committee meetings when I ask her to save her comments for later in the agenda or for the next meeting because the agenda item is closed or because she's exceeded her speaking time. .... Hey. It's been 20 years. Gotta look for excitement where you can find it.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

"Only need 1 registered leader present at all times that has YPT training" Not to nit pick but .... where did you find "present at all times"? Camping groups are often split between different activities and locations. While I absolutely fully support your statement, I don't see any such rule in BSA. An applicable example is that two adults are required for any camp out, at least once registered and one parent. One must be YPT trained. Whoops, we didn't realize the waffle mix required eggs. There's a gas station 1/2 mile away. There's nothing that says the leader can't go get the eggs. No different than the leader visiting a ranger station, a shower facility or taking an afternoon hike. It's a judgement call, but I don't see anything saying "present at all times".

Okay. I apologize in advance for taking this beyond the original "cell phone policy contradicts family policy" topic.... I always wonder how many youth are driven out of scouting by arbitrary rules created from the attitudes of adult leaders. At least at the local unit level, the scout has the option and time to find another troop. My eldest son had no such option when attended the 2013 national jamboree. He was put under such gung-ho, starch-and-iron-the-underwear leaders that it ruined the NJ for him and he's still trying to decide if he wants to be part of scouting. They were creating arbitrary rules left and right. He's a hard worker and never had trouble under our 19+ year scoutmaster. But at the jamboree, he, like half his jamboree troop .... ASPL and PLs included, was threatened with one-more-incident and you go home. Too many leaders think the Scout Law "obedient" is a synonym for "passive" and "submissive". It's not! It's about doing what's right including fighting for your own dignity and rights. It gets down to what type of men are we trying to create from these scouts? Spineless followers or men with character and a backbone. What type of leaders are we trying to create? Prison guard leaders that beat down their charges with arbitrary rules or men that people want to follow through their example and capabilities. As for cell phones and other similar rules... if the state does not outlaw it ... if BSA does not ban it... if the camp does not list it... why create yet another rule? Use it as a teaching opportunity and not as a criminal incident. We're trying to build up these kids, not beat them down. And no.... I won't send my kid to another national jamboree unless I personally know the leaders and have seen them in action. I'll suggest they save their money for high adventures like Sea Base, Philmont, BWCA, backpacking trips or other grand adventures. Or even The Summit not during a jamboree. Really sad, but it was a waste of money paid for a really bad experience.

For someone totally new to scouting, the scouting program is hard to grasp. A short five to ten page guide won't be enough. Plus there's the challenge of how many to print (5, 10, 20). It's hard to predict. (and most will be lost, damaged or thrown out before they are ever read) This is our plan. #1 At join scouting night .... in paper ... say two double sided pages .... give them a "QUICK REFERENCE GUIDE" that has a pack calendar, contact information, local resources (pack web site, email addresses, scout shop, ...) and a strongly emphasized link to the pack "parent guide". #2 We collect from each parent both a membership application and one or more email addresses. #3 We send them a welcome email with a reference to our pack parent guide (unsecured) and a username and password how to get to the secured content. We again emphasize reading the pack parent guide. Those parents that are interested will read / skim the guide at their leisure. Those that aren't interested at that moment can find it later when they are ready to read it. Here's a link to our parent guide. I really like it, but as with all guides, it could use improvement. http://woodbury56.mypack.us/aboutus