fred8033

A few scouting accounting practices that have saved us. - Incoming money ... Every deposit is recorded in a new Excel spread sheet listing check # (or cash), amount, purpose, scout credited and name on check if different family than the scout. The spreadsheet amount total matches the amount deposited. It has saved us many times when other records get screwed up. - Outgoing money ... Our bank statements are saved and shared as PDF files and include images of unit checks that were cashed. - We post our files in an online secure spot for sharing documents with other troop leaders. It has saved us when people change computers or computers crash. Everything else can then be recreated or put in Excel, Quicken, QuickBooks or other.

Just to clarify ... NSP has been used multiple ways in this discussion. - I fully believe in NSP (new scout PATROLS) in that scouts join at the same time are probably friends and are at the same level looking to have similar experiences and activities. To me that's a patrol, a set of friends working together to do things. The PL is a member of that patrol and learning leadership by helping his friends try to achieve their objectives. As the new scout patrol learns things, they naturally become just a normal patrol. - I do NOT believe in troop NSP (new scout PROGRAMS) that are formal documented ISO 9001 procedures. Maybe new scout programs run by summer camp staff, but even those I don't particularly like. Every patrol has things they can learn or do better. A new scout patrol just has alot of things that they need mentoring on. As such, the troop guide and/or an ASM pays special attention to them providing guideance and training as needed. I do wish the TERM "new scout patrol" would go away. They are just a patrol that needs a bit more guidance and experience. The troop guide (and SM/ASMs) should be there to help anyone who needs training or help. And the guide would know that a new set of scouts would need a bit more help. ... ... Multiple people in this discussion have helped me learn how to state what I've always thought but could never state cleanly. Troops with large documents, many procedures and many forms are boxing in the scouts and telling them exactly how to do it. It's just a way to hide an adult run troop. It's not teaching leadership. It's teaching process compliance. And, it's doing scouting how adults want to do scouting, not how scouts want to do scouting.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

desertrat77: Agreed. The BSA uniform reminds me of a tie. A tie is a style preferred 30+ years ago and few people wear anymore ... except when required.... Everyone removes ties as soon as possible. I'm sure this is related to why uniforming is such a challenge. I agree that uniforming should be a "method" in scouting. But, ... IMHO ... the purpose of being uniformed is to get the individual to identify as a member of a group; as something more than just a "self". I think the Canadian uniform does that just fine. Move all our flashy stuff off the uniform to the sash. ... ... Side note: My opinion is affected by my disappointment with the centenial unifoorm. I really looked forward to it. BUT ... The belt buckles fail. Scout pants wear out and tear within a year. (My old style pants are going on 8+ years and are in fine shape.) The new shirt stick-on letters and flag fall off. (old shirt was embroidered.) It's not the foreign manufacturing. BSA cut-corners on materials and design. I'm disillusioned as the price stayed very high. It's all marketing hype and little quality. I'm really glad the scout stores have a lifetime replacement guarantee. I've swapped out two belts and three pants. I've got a shirt to swap now too.

February... - Sounds like your Webelos could switch now if they really wanted. That's the common question: Switch now or wait for the whole den? - Almost none wait until end of 5th grade. That's just not how it's done these days. 99% transition at the B&G. It's easier as that's when Webelos from other packs join a troop and it's nice to join together. - February gives your Webelos a chance to get to know the troop before bigger summer camping events. - Don't worry about getting all you can out of Cub Scouts. Boy Scouts is a new adventure. The Arrow of Light is the only lasting Cub Scout award. ... ... It would be nice to learn more about this 50% B&G / 50% end-of-year crossover. That's definitely not what I've heard or seen or published by BSA.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Eagledad... LOL. Yeah, there are some pretty strong scouting opinions out there and the boards don't always stay polite. My apologies to 5yearscouter in advance. The link you posted earlier set off one of my hot buttons. The linked document is very well done and someone put many hours of love into it. BUT ... if I saw that document from a troop, I would run away. I think it all comes down to the type of troop and your view of scouting. I just don't believe a troop needs a large bureaucratic layer on top of the BSA program. Most everything in that document is already in the scout handbook. The troop guide is the troop guide because he's already advanced. So, he should be pretty familiar with the scout handbook. Let him use it as he offers advice and training to the new scouts. I think it also comes down to the view of a troop guide. The linked doc views the troop guide as "RUNNING" the new scout program like a teacher runs a class room. Planning worksheets. Schedule worksheets. Detailed session plans. Flag quiz. Progress charts. I don't view it that way. In our troop, the troop guide is more like a friendly older brother who offers advice and shows the new scouts how to do things. He doesn't run their advancement and he doesn't run a Brownsea program. I just don't think the new scout program needs to be that formal or planned. Encourage? Yes. Check progress? Yes. Provide opportunities? Yes. Run a formal new scout program? No. One of my sons was in a troop like that. It was too much like school and too little fun. IMHO, documents like that reflect adult(s) who wants to inject more control than reflecting a real problem. (I'm for keeping new scouts together by the way. No of this breaking them up into different patrols. That's a different topic though.)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I felt like I was speaking heresy saying I liked the Canadian uniform. Glad I'm not the only one.

I like their scout uniform. Where do they display their advancments?

You don't need to write up anything special or design a new scout program. Refer to the Boy Scout handbook and the Scoutmaster handbook. What's written there is what you do. Other than having a troop guide for advice and guidance during the first 3 to 6 months, they are just like any other patrol. Just remember they choose a patrol leader and are not lead by the troop guide. They may also get a bit of special attention from the scoutmaster to keep them focused on basic skills / initial advancement. But their program is learning the skills to camp and have adventures in scouting. Just so happens those skills are organized as Tenderfoot, 2nd class and 1st class. I've been in troops with formal document new scout patrol agendas / programs. It get stale quick. Have them always bring the Boy Scout handbook. T-2-1 is their patrol program. Let them choose and control the rest.

I've generally thought of myself as middle of the road. I've voted for both parties depending on the candidate. But with the debt discussions, I tend to agree with the cutting side ... if it is possible. I had a hard time trying to decide who is right. But here's some stats from the IRS... I don't have the exact numbers with me right now, but I think I'm pretty close from what I remember. - USA has 311 million people. Roughly 190 million working age. 140 million tax returns. - Of the 140 million tax returns, the top 1% of returns pays 27.6% of the taxes; top 5% pays 57% (might be higher). Top 10% pays almost 70%. Bottom 36% (around 50 million tax returns) have no tax liability. Bottom 25% ... of tax returns ... around 35 million tax returns ... get more money back from the IRS than was paid in. - Debt is approx 14 trillion. Saying it's 45 thousand dollars of debt per person is meaningless when 36% don't contribute to paying back the debt and 25% pull money out thru their tax "return". If you correct for the percent they pay, someone in the top 1% of tax returns has a debt liability of $2,500,000. Someone in the top 5% has a liability of $1,500,000.

Best parts of summer camp - Watching the scouts take over the screen shelter to play magic cards or other board games in the evening. Older scouts teaching the young how to play. It's happened for years. Now we know enough to bring two extra screen shelters. Scouts use two. Adults get one. - Scouts sailing, horseback riding, climbing and other adventures. - Two older scouts who didn't want to do merit badges decided to take a hike to the other side of camp. (3000 acre camp) They were gone a long time. They missed lunch, but got to climb the fire tower. Received messages from staff saying they saw our scouts hiking back. They got back for dinner and fell asleep early that evening. Good for them. - Standing on the boat house deck watching the sunset over the lake. - All the adults playing hearts on the last night of camp. The SPL walks up to us to tell us to pipe down because the scouts are trying to sleep.

Basementdweller hit it on the head. Good healthy troops play laser tag.

Yes. Posting the name and image of a scout and making bad comments about him is inappropriate. But before closing, please remove the link that identifies the scout.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I don't buy the doom and gloom. It's the standard response to change. BUT ... BSA will survive. Scouting will look the same. The same supporters will be there. I should step away now. This is a topic of recuring and never ending debate. We won't resolve it here. ... ... ... Personally, I think we lose more people by disallowing laser tag... but that's a different thread. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

I hear you. I just don't believe it. I don't think it would change the membership in any significant way. And it would re-open so many doors that have been shut recently. And the charge that scouting is too liberal these days? I really just don't know what that means. I never really hear that said. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah Nicely said. I just want BSA out of this debate. Both sides are using BSA to advance their own political agendas. Sexuality is not part of the BSA program and BSA encourages scouts to follow their church's religious beliefs. So we already have inconsistencies there. Look at the large list of official BSA religious emblems. There's many faiths represented that allow homosexuality. Isn't that already a contradiction and a little two faced? BSA is asking COs to tangibly support units, but BSA won't support the CO's teachings? Hmmmm..... To be consistent, should BSA start dropping charter partners? That wont happen. (to be clear... I don't want that to happen.) America values tolerance. All BSA needs to say is "BSA will not discriminate based on sexual preference. BSA offers a youth program structure used by many organizations (charter partners) wanting to provide a rich youth program. It is up to those charter partners to select unit leadership that reflect their own values and teachings." Also, BSA is already extremely inclusive. Many many faiths. Leaders of both genders. Many political parties, even a few democrats I hear. I really don't think there will be an exodus. Hard to believe at times, but we are all mature individuals who learn to work together. My faith says its wrong and I agree with that teaching. My neighbor faith says its okay. Guess what, we live together just fine and we are friends. If you think we'll lose membership, how many units and members dropped when BSA started allowing female scoutmasters and cubmasters? I bet almost zero.

Someone wrote: "In our district the UCs main job is recruiting." It made me think about how often district committee vacancies or those that need to be re-staffed or filled by someone wearing two hats (district or unit). All new blood is quickly grabbed to help with higher priorities. Popcorn. FOS. FOS community / business. Membership. Recruitment. District camporees. UC never makes the cut. Also, it made me think about the type of person, the wise, kindly, friend of the unit gentleman that has spare time to regularly visit units to just say hello and see how things are going. Thats the Fred MacMurray / Lem Siddons scouting era. Were all much busier than back then. Today is the Bear Grylls / Mike Rowe scouting era. The point is if you plan to keep a volunteer, you better have something definite for them to do or something else will take their time and attention. Thinking about finding the right person reminded me that units have very different personalities. A commisioner that works well with one unit wont work well with another. BSA needs to be realistic. A program designed around finding many people of the right type of a rare personality is asking for failure. They are out there, but they are already volunteering as scoutmasters or popcorn chairs or membership chairs. .... What's Bob's number? I'll call him. I like the unit-to-unit mentorship idea.

Oak Tree wrote: "I would prefer to be associated with an organization that was not so frequently in the news over its gay policy." Agreed. It's a headache. I'd wish BSA would remove themselves from this debate. Leave this decision to the charter org since the charter org owns the unit and already selects the leaders. Unit leadership can then reflect the values and teachings of the charter org. The perception of discrimination and bigotry hurts membership and invites ridcule. I say "perception" because I know several leaders with alternative lifestyles. As with any leader of any life style, I expect them to not advocate, educate or make political any sex related topic and direct the scouts to discuss those topics with their parents or religious leaders. Internally, it's a non-issue. Scouts don't teach sex education. The closest is the Family Life MB where your required to discuss with your parents "the growing-up process and how the body changes, and making responsible decisions dealing with sex." Internally, there's no hostility or advocacy one way or the other. It's just not on the agenda. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

My eldest worked scout summer camp last year. I didn't realize until the end of the year that he took up smoking cigarettes that he got from another youth staffer. Based on stories I've heard, I'm betting he also got alcohol and pot from some of the older staffers who wanted to seem cool to the younger ones, mainly the kitchen staff. I asked the camp ranger about it. I was a bit upset when he let me know that he knew about the cigarette smoking by under-age staffers and the trouble that he had with the kitchen help. I may be a bit naive, but I don't want my 16 year old son working an all summer camp, away from home job with co-workers who everyone knows smokes. The older staff problems I can sort of understand because you don't know immediately who's going to cause trouble. You can only correct things so fast amd that did happen. BUT ... if you know a 16 or 17 year old staffer smokes ... my apologies for sounding harse ... they should lose their job. Same for being in a troop, if a scout smokes (anything), that disqualifies him for scouting. They are welcome back when they stop, but until then they can't participate.

In another thread, I also reflected on my disappointment with the commisioner service. My sons joined a pack that had real problems. I tried to get a commisioner to visit, but nothing happened. Eventually, I got a few council people to come and their presence helped straighten things out. Though some units may benefit from effective commisioners, I think the vast majority have never seen one, never benefitted or had a bad experience. In another thread, I suggested replacing commisioners with a unit-to-unit mentoring program. Each year, unit leaders visit a different unit and are visited by leaders of another unit. Rotate the visits so that the same unit-to-unit visits don't occur uear after year. It builds relationships, educates new scouters, provides examples of good practices and make bad situations visible. Have the visit be a committee meeting and/or a troop meeting. Make the commissioners be the team that helps people schedule the visits. Make leader knots include a requirement to visit other units. I also like what was suggested earlier, district unit trainers. I'm not sure how this would work, but I think it would be very helpful to have someone contact units each year and ask "what training can we provide you?" Defined class agenda (BALOO, OWLS, ...) or general topic (how to run committee meetings, how to run a PLC). Then, ask when they can present that training. Maybe right before or after a committee meeting. It's a pet peave of mine when people ask "Are you trained?" or infer "They probably aren't trained". My experience with BSA training is hit and miss and it only communicates the rudimentary ideas. I could easily see a unit scouter be fully trained and not really understand that much about scouting. As the commisioner service needs re-engineering, the BSA training program needs improvement too. Here's a good example. I've been fully trained for eight years and I still did not understand scouting until I started reading multiple forums and the Ask Andy column. My knowledge took another leap forward by being in multiple units and seeing how those units did things. It really made me contemplate the best practices for the units that I was a leader in. As far as I'm concerned, the unit commisioner services is permanently broken and needs to be replaced with a new concept. Personally, I think a good unit-to-unit mentoring program is the answer as it addresses both the commisioner goals and provides practical on-the-job training and feedback

I agree. I look forward to seeing what Beavah and NJ say. I learn much from their posts. I'm betting the key is that ... we as scouts and scouters only succeed by the unstated agreement to work together. "giving orders to scouts" - Legally, we have no authority. Scouts have to be willing to accept our direction. If that relationship breaks down, our only recourse is to call their parents to pick them up or call the police because we are no longer responsibile for the health and welfare of the scout. We hand off that responsibility to someone with proper authority (parent or police). "asking to be present when a scout is questioned" - By camp staff - We have no right but you can expect it anyway ... because scout camps don't have authority to detain and question scouts. They have the legal right to ask us to leave their property, but not to imprison and function as their own police force, judge and jury. At best, they can detain someone if they are calling the police (i.e. a citizen's arrest) but they better be ready to demonstrate that a crime occured and that this is the person who did it. - By police - We have no right period. Our only recourse is to immediately call the parents and support what they want to do. I look forward to what others say.

I hope SOAR continues to add features specifically designed for scouting. You can find our sites on the bottom of this page. http://greatrivers.nsbsa.org/Units.aspx (This message has been edited by fred8033)

In our troop, we plan that camp outs break even, summer camp too. Adults pay their own way too. We charge $75 annually per scout for membership. Standard fundraisers (wreath, popcorn, special ...). So, we'd want our bank balance (minus scout accounts) to be enough to cover at MINIMUM the next registration cycle and the next year of operating costs (not camping costs). I'd use a rule of thumb. For our troop, I'd want somewhere between $50 to $100 per scout in the troop general fund (unclaimed money). Your asking for trouble if you have more than $150 per scout in the account as unclaimed. For a 40 person troop, I'd want betwee $2000 to $4000 unclaimed in checking. I'd get concerned if it was below $1000 or more than $6000. EASY FIX - Reduce your camping fee so you lose $10 per scout per camp out. Encourages camping and spends down the extra. You can keep it like this for the next ten years! ANOTHER OPTION - Change your fundraiser division of profits. Give 100% to the scouts for the next few years. It would encourage more high adventures and more camping.

drhink: "nobody is forcing you to stay." Your right. There are many scouting units I would not stay in, and in fact, my 2nd son left a troop because I did not like what the troop was teaching my son. I was recently on a many hour drive with my oldest son. Our chat included the question of what's the worst part of scouting. His comment came quick: Adults that take the program too seriously. If I leave a legacy in scouting, I hope my legacy is that more people join and stay in scouting because of my involvement. I'll trust the rest to the scouts and the program. As for the laser tag / water gun rules .... If you believe laser tag violates the principles of scouting, then don't play and don't support your own unit playing. But don't tell me and my units it's wrong. It's your opinion and the rest of us get stuck explaining the silly situation and finding ways to support scouts doing something without violating the "letter of the law" that they want to do and that we think is perfectly okay. And I've had many family members serve in the military too.

We use www.soarol.com. Works great. It does cost money, but the extra features are well worth it. And no 3rd party advertising on it. Our pack and troop has been on it for 5 or 6 years. Works great!

drhink - My apologies. I should not have made the IQ crack. It was cheap. My family and our scouts just enjoy laser tag so much. There wasn't a time when we didn't leave the arena sweating and laughing and discussing all the things that happened. It's safe, exciting and gets the scouts hearts pounding from running around. And it's not really that much different then capture the flag or anyone of any of the other games that are really war based. Does the military and police use laser weapons for practice and skills development. Sure. But there's a difference between training to kill and playing a friendly game with your friends. It might be a fine line, but it's definitely there and it's a big difference. It's just hard to respect the laser tag rule when you can schedule a trip to play laser tag with your church group but not your scout group or sports group or neighborhood friends. attempt at humorA good rule of thumb should be that BSA should not establish a more liberal position than the city of San Francisco. And I remember playing laser tag at a conference near San Fran not that long ago.