fred8033

Scoutfish: I think we are all saying it's not hazing and it's not illegal either. Your examples though are not directly parallel. There are reasons to defend each situation you list because of some direct redeeming value in each. ... But, let's be clear. While there are individual circumstances and different situations types to evaluate what is abuse, there is a truth. Why is the scout asked to sing a song? Because he left his dishes. How does the song relate to the dishes? It doesn't. The dishes are not cleaned or moved (physically or emotionally) by the song. How does the song get involved? It encourages the scout to pay more attention and to get his work done. How does it do that? By humiliating the scout. Does the song in any way make the table cleaner at that moment? No. Does the song in any way return the dishes? No. Does the song in any way resolve the situation? No. The teaching moment only succeeds by succesfully humiliating the scout. Perhaps, it's a little. Perhaps, it's alot. It's still humiliation. That's negative reinforcement, against the BSA GTSS and it's textbook abuse. Very very minor abuse yes, but it is still abuse. I put it in the category of how to sit and have fun with friends. You can enjoy jokes with them or you can enjoy jokes at their expense. One is okay. The other isn't.

I always keep score in games. It's part of making the game interesting. ... Beavah: Your asserting red herring arguments raising slander and examples of swimming limits. It just muddies the debate water. "Personally, I hope in scoutin' we're helping to raise kids who aren't so fragile that, right or wrong, singing a song affects their self-respect in any way at all." That's the same argument used to defend spanking kids. So your okay with using some quantity of humiliation to toughen kids. I'm not. I expect better of the scouts and the adults. I hope we raise kids that are not fragile by teaching them how to stand up to bullies whether another kid or their youth or adult leader. ... Tampa Turtle wrote: "I view scouting as a bit of introduction into the male world which can be a bit rough and alpha-dog like." Your right. I hope I'm teaching my sons and my scouts techniques and tools to stand up to that world. To deal with rough situations and those who have to put the little guy down. And to not do it later when they have authority. I like that scouting teaches scouts to stand up to bullies. Thresholds? Everything in life is about thresholds. A beer a day is okay. Twenty beers a day is alcoholism. Dinner is okay. Five dinners is obesity. Because it's a threshold we need to think about where it is. Singing a song around the camp fire with your friends is fun. Singing a song as punishment in front of a group is not. Playing a game by agreed rules is fun. Games based on a lie are usually only fun for those in on the joke. SM and ASPLs having jokes played on them in skits? Guess what? They are in on the joke and having fun. Try doing a similar joke where they are not in on the joke. Say during a court of honor, announcements or traveling to and from camp. I bet there's a very different result. ... Perhaps it's just time to agree to disagree. We expect different things from scouts and scouting. The sad thing to me is that scouts could easily transition from your troop to ours, but I would not trust mine in yours. That's why I am very gun shy about jamborees and other activities. Scouts need to be prepared for such treatment. ... And yes, I absolutely think leaders who push techniques like this are teaching kids to be bullies.

Not all abuse is criminal. Some abuse is just mean. I think snipe hunts, singing a song to get stuff back and such is mean. And, it's a dead on match for the definition of emotional abuse. I'm sorry if you are uncomfortable with that. Not every scouting tradition is positive. You might not think it's significant, but I do. I've seen the tears. I've seen kids wanting revenge by doing it to others. It's just plain old mean and teaches others to be mean. I've talked with my sons and told them that their self-worth is worth much more than any set of dishes. If asked, readily acknowledge they are yours, but politely refuse and let the leader and everyone else know that your self-respect is worth more than any set of dishes. Similar with tricks such as snipe hunts. I've told them that any leader promoting such events is not worth their respect or trust. I'm sad to hear you defending such behavior.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Hazing? Not by the strict dictionary definition. Most definitions relate it to a joining activity. Abusive? ABSOLUTELY 100% TEXTBOOK. It seeks to change behavior by using embarrassment and humilitation. Websters dictionary definition: Emotional abuse (also called psychological abuse or mental abuse) can include humiliating the victim privately or publicly, controlling what the victim can and cannot do, withholding information from the victim, deliberately doing something to make the victim feel diminished or embarrassed, isolating the victim from friends and family, implicitly blackmailing the victim by harming others when the victim expresses independence or happiness, or denying the victim access to money or other basic resources and necessities. Other definitions can be summarized as "... all of which have the effect of eroding their self-esteem". ... I have a real hard time with those who defend the behavior and/or muddy the waters by tying it to other debates such as eliminating competition or every scout wins. Don't defend bad behavior ever, even if you have fond memories of it. I have fond memories of an 8th grade fight I was in. But, I have no excuse for it and pray that I teach my kids better. ... People associate singing for punishment with hazing because of a key aspect. The victim remembers the experience and looks for future opportunities to one-up what was done to him. That's why it hazing is illegal. It compounds over time until people are really getting hurt. Same thing happens with humiliating other people. The next guy tries to do it bigger. ... Also, what does it teach about leaders using power? We are trying to teach leadership and character. Our precepts are friendly, helpful, kind, .... BSA GTSS says discipline must be "constructive". Such punishments are no more constructive than training a dog by hitting them. The only definite lesson result is a mean dog. ... How many schools have dunce hats any more? How many of us would be happy if we heard our kids had to wear a dunce cap during the school day? ... If at this point you still support it, then implement it at work. Late for a meeting? Sing a song. Missed a delivery / commitment? 20 pushups. Took too long for lunch? Run twice around the building. Or as we are scouters, do it at troop committee meetings and and district committe meetings? Didn't return your FOS card? Wear this dunce cap for 15 minutes. If you would not do it or not make another adult do it, why push it on a youth vulnerable to your authority? ... I also think about John Wayne. Back in 1900, the leader was the toughest SOB. Worker gets out of line, then you hit them. We're just talking about another left over out-school leadership practice. Or, join the military. A good old fashioned blanket party changes behavior fast too. ... A good rule of thumb is it's bad if it entertains others at another's expense. ... Simply stated, I think it's mean spirited and I hope I have enough backbone (i.e. "character") to redirect the situation the next time I see it happening. ... Beaveh - Thanks for the thread. I think these are important subjects.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

OldGreyEagle, Basementdweller, Eagle92: You are all very polite and respectful. Thank you. ... There may be a bit of a axe to grind. My son and several of our other scouts have not had positive experiences dealing with other scouting leaders. I think one failing I've had is learning scouting at the same time as my son. He's taken some of the training with me and he knows scouting very well. 150+ nights of camping. Camp staff. Most troop positions. As I've dealt with incidents, we've learned together the real rules. The last incident before his jamboree was when another unit leader had a scout sing a song in front of other scouts to get his dishes back. I was upset because I could see the humiliation in the scout's eyes and I hated the lesson it taught. But, we never discussed when to just grin and bear it. Or even more importantly ... how to constructively speak up and protest rules when in a group. Of course, it's hard for an adult speaking to an authority figure and very very difficult for a youth speaking to an authority figure. ... I've learned our troop leaders need to coach / advise / warn our scouts when working with other troops or hooking up with H.A. or jamoboree contingents. Over the last five years, we've had eight or so scouts join us from other troops. My observation is that the transition has been painless. The opposite is not true depending on which of our scouts and who the outside leader is. Some of our hardest working and most interesting scouts have had significant trouble when working with outside leaders. Usually, because they know the BSA rules just fine, but they have no way to work an orderly rules change when told extra arbitrary rules. ... To avoid listing a litany of examples from the years, let's stay to one: tucking in t-shirts at the Jamboree. It's really a minor one, but I think it is illustrative. ... At Jamboree, the troop required the scouts to tuck in their t-shirts. Other troops did not require it. Scouts could be seen all the time with untucked t-shirts. For this troop though, it was tuck in or you can't leave camp. I've never found it mentioned anywhere saying scouts must tuck in their t-shirts. It's not part of any official uniform, period. It's not stated in the insignia guide. There's no t-shirt inspection guide. Many people have strong opinions. My wife says it's the "beat me up at recess look" or prissy. (She's a country girl. I'm a city boy. She's always telling our youngest to untuck his t-shirts. I honestly think he doesn't realize his shirts get stuck in his pants when he pulls them up. He's only six.) My question is why? These kids came from different troops that have styles. The kids were there for the Jamboree adventure and the highlight of their scouting experience, not to create the Normal Rockwell troop. The troop was only a mechanism to get to the Jamboree. So, why choose a restrictive rule that can only frustrate and that can't be found in any literature. In our troop, our scouts pass the uniform inspection sheets just fine. They do it every few meetings. The winning patrol gets a bag of candy to share. But, they don't tuck in their t-shirts. ... My opinion is that if you want to create such rules, do it with your own scouts in your own troop. They probably won't notice or protest as it's the only practice they know. But if they don't like it, they can leave your troop and join another. Don't do it with scouts where your only real responsibility is to get them through the event safely. Keep to the rules as published by BSA. No more. No less. If you feel the need to create rules, only adopt really important rules and avoid creating trival rules. (tucking in t-shirts, dishes on table, ...) ... Of course it would be one thing if it was just creating one rule. Scouts can always survive a few new rules. But it's rarely just one or two. It's always more. My experience with scouts is that the more rules and boundaries you create the more the rules (and you) are tested and challenged. The scouts will feel boxed in and you will see worse behavior. It just creates a bad experience for everyone. ... Our troop has created rules too, but the rules are more like "on a high adventure hike, the hikers only travel as fast as the slowest person" or "when canoeing the canoes should stay together so that the last canoe can see the first." Other than that, why box in the scout when our role is to support and open the world to the scout? .... 1) How was the Jambo troop organized? By that I mean was it organized by districts and did you get a chance to meet the leaders and learn about them prior to the event. ANSWER: COUNCIL CHOSEN. BY DISTRICT generally, but not strictly. Did not get to know the leaders before we were financially committed. Got to know the leaders through a few camping trips. 2) How many prep trips did the jambo troop do prior to jambo? My jambo trip also did a HA trip in Canada, so we were meeting about 18-24 months out, doing training campouts andfundraisers. So we got to know folks, both leaders and scouts in our patrol. ANSWER: Three, but he only got to the last one with his troop. He was bounced around as the council consolidated jamboree troops. He also worked full time as camp staff. He wanted the jamboree, not the smaller events. (learning experience for both of us.) As a 16/17 year old, he had "been there, done that". For his out-of-troop high adventure, he only met the contingent once before leaving for the trip. It went fine.

Gary_Miller wrote: "Why don't you just use the definition in the Scout Handbook. After all thats what the book is for. .... A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. " The trouble is what are the rules? Many places say the rules are the scout oath and law. I'm okay with that. It's worked well in our troop. But what happens when adult leaders start pulling rules and punishments out of thin air? What happens when the scouts don't have any realistic timely way to get the rules "changed in an orderly way"? Are they dammed to suffer the situation? Adults pretty much get to ignore any extra rules. Scouts can only submit. I've seen it with new leaders in our troop, in neighbor troops and in my son's Jamboree troop. - Jamboree troop - Couldn't leave camp site without t-shirt tucked in even though it's a 100+ degrees. His home troop doesn't do that. I read the Jamboree leaders manual. It wasn't in there. Scouts from other troops were allowed to not tuck in their t-shirts. My son had no choice to choose the troop, the leadership or to change to troops. - Forgot dishes on table - Must sing a song in front of all these people you barely know. In his home troop, we consider it emotional abuse and violating the scout law: friendly, kind, courteous, helpful, loyal. We make it clear to the scouts that hazing is not the scout way and does not reflect the type of people we want you to become. - "Shine flashlight in my eyes again and you lose it forever. I've got a whole collection." Really? How about just asking the scout to be courteous and explaining it hurts your eyes. If your eyes are that bad, perhaps you want to reconsider camping. - Two scouts 30 minutes late from curfew and the whole troop has to leave the event activity an hour early the next day. These scouts have to talk a mile or more between locations and wait in long lines for their activities. And then kids that barely know the other kids are going to be punished as a result? - What happens when a scout wants to go on an event that is explicitly advertised as the rules are the scout oath and law, then they have a final organizational meeting a week before the event where 60+ minutes are listing specific rules and consequences? There is no time to change troops, to change the rules or to get your money back. Scouts must submit. I just think we as leaders need to think carefully as we apply "obedient" and be a bit more obedient to what we promised our scouts. Scouting is supposed to be about the scout's experience, not our whims.

Nothing specific happened. It's just always dancing in the back of my mind as I reflect about my troop and my personal interactions with scouts. Especially as I see others who do it very differently. The topic is always in my head as I read other topics. I think each of us has had moments where we think "glad our son is not in their troop". Of course, I'm sure others have thought that our troop too.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Many scouting terms are interpreted very differently by different people. "Boy led." "Active." "Earned." "twenty nights of camping." Those terms have all been discussed and debated to death. There is one term that few people discuss and debate and I think it causes huge problems. "A scout is obedient." Many leaders think of "obedient" as a scout is submissive and will do what you say without question. Yeah, and pigs fly. In my opinion, we, as leaders, need to be careful to not spout extra rules to make our lives easier. Scouting is for the youth. We are looking to build character, not to box it in. We need to avoid frustration when we don't have the Normal Rockwell scouting experience. Instead, we need to focus on what the scouts want to get out of the event and influencing how the scouts treat each other and how they work together. Very little of that involves creating more rules.

nldscout wrote: "When I went a an ASM in 2001 we had no problems like your descibed. When we toured DC, we turned them lose with instructions to stay in groups of no less than 3, and to have FUN. All the leaders from the 5 troops in our council spread out all over the mall area and just were there to observe. We met up at a certain time without any problems." That's how my son's school group did it and he had a great time. My son's Jamboree troop was not like that at all. Little freedom. But they also had some relatively young kids in the troop as the council seems to have lowered the age limit to fill the spots. I've also got to know several of the troop leaders since the event. They would not mix well with my son's home troop. Especially as I've seen them play the "do this or else" card way too often. And yes, their uniforms resemble russian generals. Perhaps it as the "safest Jamboree ever" focus. Perhaps it was something just a bad luck draw for adult/scout mix. It was just not a great experience. Papadaddy wrote: . "In my opinion a lot of that is unnecessary and just drives up the price which excludes more kids." Throughly agree. Saw it happen. A lot of wasted dollars on stuff that wasn't important or critical.

SeattlePioneer wrote: "Also, I strongly recommend that monthly checking account statements be sent to someone OTHER than the treasurer. To the committee chair if you have one who is wide awake or the Cubmaster. " What a great suggestion! I'll make that part of our SOPs.

Our council 2010 jamboree price was $2,200. For the price, Jamboree is big gamble. Will your son mix well with the adults, the scouts and the troop structure? Will he have new and rich experiences? Do you personally know the adult leaders of the jamboree troop? (Im pretty sure the leaders are already selected and there is not extra space for parents to go with the jamboree troops. Its not for parents to tag along. You just wont know which council jamboree troop your son will be in until he is assigned.) .. Will the troop adults be so focused on making the perfect Jamboree troop to make them look good that they forget to let the scouts have a good time? For my son, he spent a lot of money to get a really bad experience. Before Jamboree, he had 150 nights of troop camping under his belt with many years of leadership and a several high adventures. At his Jamboree troop, he was treated like a little kid. And not just him. Many in his troop were threatened to be sent him including the ASPL, two PLs and other scouts. I later talked with the ASPL and PLs and they confirmed much of what my son told me. Our council 2010 jamboree contingent included tours of Washington D.C. Like a previous poster, my son had already seen most of the tour stuff. The difference was the lack of freedom. On his school trip, the students were given great freedom to explore and locations were coordinated to meet back up. But with scouts they stood in long lines by troop. (One time my son was punished was while the troop waiting yet again to get lined up. They were next to a bathroom. So he used it. The troop left without him. When he came out and caught up with them, he was reprimanded, lost privileges and had to stay with the adults.) The warning I would give is think about your sons home troop. My sons home troop is traditional scouting but easy going. I've never seen a scout threatened with punishment. I've never seen his scoutmaster yell. The troop doesnt work that way. But, the jamboree troop very much did. I always say no two troops are the same and they reflect the collective personality of the adult leaders. Perhaps, Jamborees are easy for scouts that come from strict / procedural / militaristic troops. Its just a big gamble with $1800. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Worth it? Really really depends .... I definitely don't think every part of Woodbadge is useful to everyone. CLASS ROOM MATERIAL ... Insightful material. Very useful if you have never seen it. For me it was only a refresher as it was almost exactly the same stuff as business seminars I took a decade earlier for leading high performance teams. Also, huge overlap with business courses in college. COURSE STRUCTURE, SONGS, MARCHING AND SKITS - For me, the most useful. Showed me how an "ideal" troop works. Not explicitly taught, but led to the most insight. I wish someone would have said "watch how we do it ... that's the ideal for how troops should work" TICKETS - Hmmmm... Very inconsistent scope and content. Smart students wrote their tickets carefully to get them done quickly. Others wrote college degree tickets. If you already volunteer in scouting with multiple roles, tickets are overwhelming. If your not volunteering in scouting with multiple roles, your probably not going to take woodbadge anyway. The tickets did have some good results for me. Others were useless. It was also frustrating that I had already just done several big scouting projects within a few months before the course. Couldn't count those as tickets though. Grrrrr..... So if your going to take Woodbadge, avoid volunteering to do anything else until after the course and avoid raising ideas and suggestions before the course. You might be able to use them as tickets. OVERALL - I can't recommend or warn away. Each person is different. Each person gets out what they want. I will say this. Woodbadge is definitely overhyped. It's just another training course, but better coordinated than others.

Seems a scouting prerequisite to be fascinated by fire and axes ... hopefully not at the same time ... both kids and adults. I've seen many new kids fascinated with matches and what burns. Usually, it's the first time someone trusted them with matches, fuel and such. Every year you can watch the new scouts disappear when older scouts tell them that bathroom hand cleaner burns. It usually just one or two camp outs though. The kid may have a fire issue. I don't know. I like your solution. Don't miss the personal boundary issue (taking your personal stuff) and that needs to be talked. A good solution would be to have him replace what was taken. Someone might have better solution. Just don't ignore that aspect.

boomerscout: Scout spirit is something that both leaders and scouts are supposed to have. It's about how you lead your personal life and how you treat others. I would NEVER NEVER NEVER deny advancement based on fundraising. Period. It's just way too small a part of scout spirit. And generally, scout spirit is something the scout and SM decide together thru discussion at an SMC ... except in extreme cases. ... ... I use this link all the time to answer how to apply advancement issues such as scout spirit, active and such. http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/home/boyscouts/guideformeritbadgecounselors/rankadvancefaq.aspx ... ... John-in-KC: Good response. For our troop, other than rechartering cost, we spend less than $1200 a year, but we are a long established troop. The troop budget (including rechartering) is covered by $75 dues annually. The $1200 is for advancement, food, supplies and replacement equipment (two or three tents a year, maybe a lantern, a stove ...). Stove fuel is budgeted into event fee. For some troops, you are very right. For another troop in our home town, they have $100 dues AND need to sell $40,000 in popcorn each year to break even. Yes, more scouts. But the key difference is they cover **ALL** adult costs (car/truck fuel, camp fees, etc.) Where they have 50 kids at summer camp, they will also have 25+ adults at camp too, all paid for by the troop. On monthly weekend camps, they routinely have 20+ adults at the event ... all paid for by the scouts fundraising. ... I have a real problem with this, but it's not my troop. So you just smile and move on. Our troop is the other extreme. To avoid creating issues / questions like this, the SM, CC (me) and other leaders fully pay our way except ... troops pays our registration. We may increase camp event fee to cover fuel if it is more than 100 miles each way but few ask for reimbursement. Also, the troop pays for four adults at summer camp ($90 per person, $360 total cost). If more stay ""all"" week, then we split the four paid across those who stayed all week and the each person covers the difference. There is really no standard practice for troop finances, fundraising or scout accounts.

Wow. Sheilab haven't you been dealing with troop financial / leadership issues for a year or more? Not much fun to go through that stuff. Financially, BSA leaves alot to the CO and troop to work through. Personally (not reflecting BSA rules) ... ... I prefer ... All adults (leaders and parents, even the scoutmaster) to pay their own way. (except rechartering... troop budget pays for adult registration) ... I prefer ... Troop "dues" covers the troop annual budget include rechartering, COH food, supplies and equipment purchases. Our troop dues are $75 a year. Troops really don't need that much even. I bet we could get by with $50 but we want a safety net. ... I prefer ... Every campout is a "break even" event. (i.e. don't plan to earn or lose money for the troop) ... I prefer ... MORE IMPORTANT TO ME ... 100% of fundraiser profits going to scout accounts. If scouts want to pay their dues from scout account, that's fine. As a parent or as a scout, if I was to get little or none of the fundraiser profits, I'd soon stop selling. Especially, if I saw other families not sell. Scout supports troop by helping out physically and paying their fair share (dues) and covering their own costs (camping). More than that is covering for someone else who is not doing their fair share. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

moosetracker - You said it all earlier. "COR/IH of the CO will trump all". All the voting you talk about is an okay idea, but not BSA procedures or forms based. It's how your CO does it. It's fine. It builds consensus and support. But it's the CO/COR that is 100% responsible, not the committee. If the CO/COR wants to get rid of the CC without talking to anyone first or holding a vote, BSA is just fine with that.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Feeling very disillusioned right now. Just when I started respecting our neighbors from the north, eh.

For our council, yes. Our pack is on the 2nd year of Lion cubs. Last year we had eleven kindergarten Lions. Looks similar for this year. No real rank patch yet that I've seen.

"Scout is not a rank." Yeah, been in those discussions. Over the years, BSA has sometimes called it a rank. Othertimes a badge. Now, a badge. But it's worn on the uniform in the place where the BSA inspection sheet says "rank" patches go. Also, if you ask a scout what rank he is, he'll say he's a scout. He won't say "I have no rank." As far as I'm concerned, if they have no rank, the shirt pocket should be empty. But, that's me. Badge vs Rank ... It's a legalistic and useless point. I just don't care for the Bobcat "badge" because the kids are never really Bobcats. Plus we now need space for the Lion rank on the shirts. "Joining requirement" Not really. I've known kids who take months to get their Bobcat. Are they NOT supposed to come to meetings until they know the Cub Scout promise? Are they not really Cub Scouts until Bobcat is earned? For kids that join at the same time, it works fine. For kids that join off schedule, they often earn the Bobcat and rank badge at the same meeting. Not right, but it happens 50% of the time.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I agree in that the decision process can be whatever the CO/COR wants. And yes, the CO/COR can delegate the decision. But as far as BSA is concerned it's only the CO/COR (or the CC himself) who can remove a CC based on that delegated decision. Check the BSA registration forms: signature of the CC and signature of the COR. There is no place for the whole committee to sign.

The committee can't vote the CC out. The CC appoints the committee. It's a top down organization. Only the CO (executive) or COR can do this. No formal process. Once the CO or COR decides it needs to be done, it can be just done. A short talk or letter saying: "thank you but your services are not needed anymore. " No explaination even needed. But best to smooth the water as best you can. The decision process and communication is fully at the discretion of the CO and/or COR. It's their choice. It is best to immediately go to the scout office and have the CC removed from the unit membership roster. Until that is done, the CC administers the unit. It is best to have a new CC ready to step in.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Parents gets confused each year. Do I join a Bobcat den or a Tiger den ? It's confusing as it is not parallel with other ranks or even Boy Scouts. In Boy Scouts, "scout" is the initial rank and it is a real rank they stay at until they earn the next. In Cub scouts, the scouts have the rank matching their school grade and they are working to earn that rank. No scout is ever really a Bobcat (as in rank.) Bobcat is good because it gets the scout up in front of everyone fairly quickly. But it seems that could be done just by a welcoming ceremony or greeting. I'd rather see the bobcat requirements added to the start of each Cub Scout rank. Then, drop Bobcat.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Wow. "All commercial products must sell on their own merits, not the benefit received by the Boy Scouts." Two years ago I found the exact box of Trails End microwave popcorn at Walmart. The box was $2.50 (or cheaper). It was $15 thru scouts. The only difference was the scouts added a paper/cardboard wrapper to make it look right for fundraising. The box and inside product was the exact same product. When we sell wreaths, we can sell them for pretty much the same price stores sell them for. Makes it hard to argue for popcorn as the fundraiser.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

If it wasn't for the cost and effort (expensive shirt and multiple units), I've wanted to create an every day, out in public Class A (minimal decorations) and a court of honor Class A (knots and all the plumage). Just a thought.

I dead on agree with Tampa Turtle. "My sons were and always up for something during the summer. They will even volunteer for adult work days if it is scouting related... "Over the years my attitude has changed. I say offer a summer program and not worry who shows up. Make it something you enjoy anyway and celebrate those who come. Don't get a chip on your shoulder over who does not. Best cub meeting ever was only me and my co-leader and our sons. We almost cancelled but decided to go on. It was like a father-son play-date. My boy still remembers it 5 years later as one of his favorite times. "By doing an activity and going forward even with a few boys you send a clear message to those boys: you are important enough to do this with. "I think barriers to Summer Program is the parents." Especially, the "parent" issue. I think this is key. I've made a real effort to get to know the parents and get us each enjoying each others company. Whether it is cards or just discussing our lives with each other, it doesn't matter. If you can show the parents they matter and enjoy each other's company, they will bring their kids. There is a side benefit too. The kids are then more separated from the adults. The kids get to know each other better. It helps reduce the kids manipulating their parents thru their normal learned habits. This summer we had 62 people attend summer camp, 31 scouts and 31 parents, about 50% of the pack. The last few Cub Scout years have been great. I have four years left and I hope they continue to be as good.