fred8033

"came to us in December 2022". So then, the boy effectively finishes six month requirements sometime in May. Arrived with you Dec 15th means six months on May 15th. IMHO, I would not be overly legalistic with this AOL requirement as the scout won't gain anything with those last few weeks after the rest of the AOL den moves on. Sometimes I do apply the common sense rule "what does it serve?" In this case, there will not be any gain. In fact, the scout could then be out-of-sync with the rest of the scouts that cross over. ... Sometimes you have to be flexible to avoid having the parent damage the scout's journey.

Ceremonies are important. I think there are many ways to do meaningful ceremonies. If nothing else, Lord Baden Powell would be the perfect fulcrum for ceremonies. Tell his story. Tell the vision. Tell the evolution of scouting. Tell the meaning. Tell what scouts have done for others for 100+ years. OA is about continuing the service and honor fundamental to scouting. I've participated in many ceremonies in and out of scouting. Ceremonies mark achievements and transitions. I fully 100% believe OA can have extremely meaningful ceremonies without the uncomfortable use of American Indian culture.

I like your write ups. Perhaps later as arrowmen grow to brotherhood or vigil, the original connection with American Indian lore can be discussed. I don't see a useful purpose during the original ceremonies. The arrow has been a world-wide concept for thousands of years and is a good construct for OA.

Perhaps your saying "exactly true" is useful. I suspect it is a mix.

I'm just an OA member embarrassed by my organizations practices. Is it a huge embarrassment? No. My embarrassment is more about not wanting to be associated with the practice. I should be proud of everything about OA. It's the whole point. OA is an honor society. It's about service and fellowship. Instead, OA has as major area that I'm embarrassed to talk about. https://ictnews.org/news/order-of-the-arrow-is-a-secret-scout-society-in-the-spirit-of-the-lenni-lenape-a-lenape-leader-disagrees Lenni Lenape elder and tribal pastor John Norwood responded to Indian Country Today in an email, that his view on the Order of the Arrow’s adherence to said traditions and practices are plainly “not authentic.” “It is my understanding that the original ‘lore and ceremony’ of the Boy Scouts of America, Order of the Arrow was allegedly based upon what was claimed to be Lenape culture, although I am uncertain as to whether that remains true, Norwood wrote in an email. The order was “based upon a version of the old Northern Unami dialect of Lenape, called ‘Mission Lenape,’ which was probably gleaned from Moravian missionary documents going back to the 18th and early 19th centuries. “The BSA/OA's use of Native dress and ceremony originated around the time that other non-Native organizations adopted Native dress, lore, and ceremony for their usage, ironically during a period in history when many Natives were discouraged from embracing our own tribal culture and identity and when government and social forces sought to terminate tribes. Often such groups with a history of using Native dress, lore, and ceremonies will claim that permission was granted by some “Indian” at some point in the past. Whether or not this is true is immaterial. No single individual tribal person has the authority to place the cultural knowledge and property rights of a tribal nation into the public domain.” Norwood said that no matter the intentions, the wearing of Native dress by non-Native people is appropriation. "While I respect each tribe’s right to its own perspective on the issue, I believe that no matter the sincerity of the participants, the use of Native dress and ceremonies (even when accurately portrayed) by non-Natives is a misappropriation of our culture. I appreciate the effort to consult with area tribes, as expressed in the OA manual. However, this should be done in order to gain an understanding of, and appreciation for, regional tribal heritage, not in order to mimic it." "The problem with gaining permission to use tribal dress and ceremony from regional tribes is that the history of the United States includes the disruption and displacement of tribes to the extent that a region may not contain all of its original indigenous tribes, which would still have a claim to the cultural heritage being appropriated. Moreover, even if one generation of an authentic tribe granted such permission, another generation would still have the right to withdraw such permission. Also, there are some non-historic cultural enthusiast groups that illegitimately claim tribal identity and authority, which would fraudulently grant such permission to those seeking their blessing to “play Indian.” Norwood says using a drum for "Native" song created by non-Native people is also appropriating culture. "The songs and ceremonies and regalia of our people belong to our people. They represent a heritage that has passed from one generation to the next during centuries of persecution. Some elements of regalia or songs or ceremonies are particular to a clan or family or society within a tribe and require some personal achievement and/or special permission in order to gain the right of use, even for tribal people."

No need to be rude. My "dog in the fight" is being an OA member and my not wanting to be seen as prejudiced. Cultural appropriation is a hot topic. Many reasonably view it as yet another form of discrimination. I'm very conservative, but I see the arguments as reasonable. "Speak on behalf" ... I read one of the above articles. It had a good point. No one really has the right to speak on behalf of the tribe to "give" permission. The speaker himself (a tribal member) well represented reasons for not using the Lenapi lore. It's time for OA to stand on it's own honor; not a caricature of another culture.

There was a strong use of these scouting threads by lawyers and those associated with keeping the case moving. Now that the case is mostly decided ... except appeals ... except money distribution ... except 1000 other issues, the daily use of these threads does not serve the case.

I'm one. I've been called Reagan era republican. I cringe in hindsight that I'm now associated with about eight years ago bringing in a BSA scout Indian regalia dance team to our cub scout pack for our pack program. Was it wrong? Not explicitly. Do I want to be seen as the guy who brought them in? Absolutely not. It's similar to telling crude inappropriate jokes. I really don't have trouble with most and will defend a person's right to tell the jokes. I just don't want to be seen as the guy telling the joke or asking someone else to tell the joke. BSA's use of indian lore in scouting has turned into an off-color joke. Time to change. Heck, the NFL and MLB made the change. Time for BSA to clean up.

Rules? Procedures? Who can vote? ... This is cub scouts. It's about asking parents to spend time with their kids outside and being active. Leaders change all the time. The written rule is good guidance, but there is a lot to be said for finding a way to get everyone to work well together.

There are rules and then rules. A published budget is a useful baseline, but unless everyone buys into the planning, it's really not agreed. Sometimes treading lightly really helps. I know in the past, our unit has reimbursed some groups more than others "just to keep the peace". Specifically, some den leaders got reimbursed and I (and a few other leaders) did not submit our expenses because it was our choice to spend that money. If it was core (advancement, books, etc), I'd always submit expenses. If it was decorations, food, optional stuff that "I choose", I often would not. Is there a path that keeps the peace and that can work toward establishing more clear rules for the future?

Link please? I did not see anything about OA ordeal / regalia changes. It would not surprise me though. It's been discussed many times. OA ceremonies make many cringe with over-the-line cultural appropriation with caricatures that border on racism. I know the ceremonies are to honor native american culture, but obviously not everyone agrees with that view. Sadly, IMHO, it's time to remove native American references from OA.

This is a real question that we should discuss. If a kid joins scouting and is already in a swim team and is a skilled swimmer, does the "swimming" merit badge add value? Perhaps scouts should be required to get 21 MBs to show "growth". We can list "core" (such as swimming), but if the kid is already a good swimmer, they get a badge for effectively no work in scouting. Perhaps swimming should be replaced with canoeing or hiking or ?????

Absolutely agree. How often do we argue about scouts double dipping on requirements? Fulfilling two requirements with one activity. Well, this is worse. This is about scouts not adding value because it's already covered. It's an eye roller for the scouts.

When our troop did it, we'd often work in a few MBs during the week. MBs that would align with the location / activities. Heck, if a scout wants to earn a MB, there are ways to make it happen.

Love that statement.

Well answered. Requirements are to enlighten the scout and lift his experience. ... IMHO, requirements are not to be "unreasonable" show-stoppers. If there would be a chance a year out to visit a federal facility and it fits the scouts journey, great. But if the requirement will cost $1000 ... or the scout has been showing advancement progress and this one requirement causes an big stopping point, then I'd look for more creative solutions.

Scouts are supposed to be active. 21 merit badges and too many are redundant with school or just boring paperwork. Now, we have yet another. Four citizenship MBs is just too many. ... Five actually ... family, society, nation, world, society? What next? Universe? ... Citizen of the Ecology?

That's the trouble with accusations. They happen. Sometimes real. Sometimes someone squirming to get out of somewhere they don't want to be. How do you defend against loose accusations but also protect the vulnerable. This #### is hard. Wishing you the best.

Lone scout learning leadership? Citizenship by themselves? Or do you mean the four merit badges? Character as a lone scout? Is it any different from homeschooling by the parents? Fitness by themselves? Fitness is achieved by being in an active, busy group; not just a merit badge. IMHO, a specific sport would be better than the lone scout program. Scouting is social. I'm not against the lone scout for isolated families, but I question the match in this situation.

The challenge is always that the unit leaders are volunteers. They are not paid or trained to handle EBD kids and EBD some of the hardest cases. Worse, those unit volunteers are usually parents too. They will say one thing and do another. My favorite: "if any kid needs scouting, it's this kid" ... BUT ... at the same time, they will quickly pull back on their own kid's involvement because they are afraid of the impact. OR, their own kid gets scared away. ... It can kill membership and influence previous recruiting ties to go elsewhere. I'm not saying abandon the scout. I'm saying this is a really hard situation and always is. A pragmatic approach is important.

It's okay to work with troubled scouts, but boundaries exist. Scouts that can't control themselves or are a risk to others do need to be separated from the troop. As for lone scout, I always question the value of it. Scout's value is in working with other scouts. Scouting is about community and developing connections. At some point, lone scout sounds more like getting rank than getting value.

You can provide friendly views to the SM, but at some point, you have to salute that the SM is the SM.

Monthly camping is the ideal; not a hard rule. 12 months a year is rare. 10 out of 12 months is outstanding. 7 to 9 months a year is good. 2 to 3 would be a warning sign. Also, it's how you count the outings. Camp in at the charter org? One night? Some months with two campouts in one month (some scouts go to one, some to another). ... I'd worry less about the number and more about holes in the calendar where the scouts could be active.

There is no meaningful scouting without camping and the associated adventures. Scouting is building character by being outside. You can't require camping, but why be in scouting if you don't learn to love the core activities. It would be like being on a football team, but not wanting to be on the field.

Schedule separation between your high adventure and the routine summer camp. Many scouts will want to do both. Many will want to brag about their pending or completed adventure. Our troop often did something like ... June = High Adventure. July = BSA Summer Camp. August = Troop summer camp.