fred8033

I see well over a hundred new members at the ordeal weekend. They do four ceremonies split between two fire rings. Our troop gets two to five scouts elected and through the ordeal each year. Our troop passes on the information from OA and OA members are also contacted directly by their chapter. I'm just not sure how much more is expected. I should mention our council does have a OA led youth training camp out each spring. It's like a university of scouting for youth, but on a camp out. Great event and great for OA activities. I like the idea of the OA running the camporee. Interesting idea. Not sure of challenges with time of year overlapping ordeal weekend. Interesting though.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I'm not arguing against OA at all. I like OA. I think it's a good idea. I'm just always sad that ... from what I see ... it's promise does not match the reality. But I am mostly on the outside and can only speak to the experience of scouts from our unit. The only significant involvement I see is the scout going through the ordeal. Then, mostly nothing, even for the OA reps. ... Side note ... we've had many scouts do high adventures (troop and council contingents) and I can't think of a single one in the last ten years that took advantage of OA service opportunities for a high adventure trip. It might be a coordination issue though because of travel plans and adults and such. It's probably a major coordination issue to figure out who can provide half their time in service, adjust treks appropriately and make sure there are sufficient adult leaders. Perhaps, I'll suggest this for the ntier as they are relatively close by. It would reduce cost drastically. Heck, I'd be up for that. Especially, if it saves us $400 or more per person.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

.... ummmm .... but .... wait .... dang .... nothing. .... Nope. ... Still nothing (This message has been edited by fred8033)

I did consider the definition of "diatribe". I'm absolutely fine with all three of the contexts below. You should look up the definition and consider the other persons perspective before suggesting there is an issue with a term. Diatribe 1 archaic : a prolonged discourse 2 : a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing 3 : ironic or satirical criticism Scoutmasters aren't a god. Rarely do they need to pass judgement and very rarely do they ever need to say no to something that's not a safety issue. The scout's on his 2nd pass looking to solve an obstacle. The most important thing a scoutmaster can do is to help put control of advancement back in the hands of the scout. If it was five months left, then the scoutmaster would not be saying no. He'd be pointing out a fact. If there was no way to honestly solve the requirements, then the scoutmaster would not be saying no. But it can be done and very easily done and then it's up to the scout to fulfill the requirements. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

qwazse: "The impending military career, noble as it is, can sometimes be a "wake-up" call to go after Eagle. The sudden realization that a boy might get a bump in pay-grade is enough to motivate some boys who three months earlier were dismissive of the badge." LOL. We have a scout in that exact situation in our troop right now. I have no issue with it. If it's what the scout values, I'll support him. It's still up to him to follow through on his requirements. It's his vision and my job as his leader to support him and not to look for reasons to say no. It's no different than if at summer camp you have a few scouts who like to climb or ride horses. When reserving troop times, I'd watch/remind the SPL of those scouts so that he can work it into his priorities and maybe schedule a troop climb or a troop horseback ride. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah - Method goals method goals method goals. Thanks for the lecturing diatribe and for being the fountain of all wisdom and for feeling responsible to post it over and over again. But the point is the scout is at the end of his journey as a scout and is asking for help to achieve something he has now decided he values for what ever reason. Though not required to help, any good scoutmaster should. This has nothing to do with the perceived value of other ranks or the advancement path of other scouts or even a comparative analysis of the application of goals and methods. This has to do with one young man reaching out for help to solve a relatively minor obstacle and the compassion of his troop leadership.

emb01 replied to my comment: "But after the ordeal, there's not much for the OA members other than to say they are in the OA or to help administer OA." .... "Really?" Sorry as much as I like and support OA, it just seems that way to me. Administrative - Ordeal weekend ... Huge event just for our chapter with hundreds and hundreds of attendees Administrative - Annual banquet ... Our chapter sends ten or so... I guess ... never attended Administrative - Conclave / conferences (sectional or national) ... Maybe a few go from the whole chapter Activity - camp service weekends ... No one from our unit has ever attended even though we have two to five scouts elected each year. Activity - lock in / overnight ... Might have had one of our scouts attend one once. Activity - One day of service ... New to me. Not familiar with it. Activity - Arrow corps ... None of our scouts. It's like jumping to OA high adventure from doing almost nothing. Activity - Summit corps ... Same comment Activity - Jamboree work ... Same comment Our OA reps often attend a few OA monthly meetings but then fall away from those too. Our troop supports OA in that we pass on information and hold elections. But we don't push OA involvement. OA involvement is up to the scouts and OA.

Now I'm mostly an outsider as I'm pretty much a once a year OA brotherhood member who likes being an adult laundry guy at the ordeal weekends. This might be a side discussion point, but when scouters don't support OA might be because they just don't see that much to it. Our biggest OA events are ordeal weekends. Our chapter is huge with about 200(??) new members for the last few years. But after the ordeal, there's not much for the OA members other than to say they are in the OA or to help administer OA. I bet it's just 10 to 20 members our of the chapter that are active. And that's after 200+ join each year. The guts of the program should be three or four times bigger than the joining events. With that said, the national park service events have been a huge improvement. And I look forward to OA service weekends after a few of my sons are grown. Other than that though, most of the OA activities that I see have to do with administering OA. My apologies as I like the idea of OA. I just always wonder about the guts of the program.

Beavah - The facts are as stated in the column. Of course if different facts, then there's a different conclusion. Your arguments of ignorance and other red herring arguments just trigger distracting diatribes that don't help anyone. And be careful in your facts too, you don't know his troop leaders ran the program for seven years or that this kid was in the troop all those years or that the leaders contributed to the scout wanting to serve his country. That's not in the facts and now your jumping to conclusions. What's in the facts is that the scout is reaching out for help to an ASSISTANT SCOUTMASTER in his troop and that ASM is now wondering what can be done. Yes, it's a tight timeline but it was easily within the requirements when he reached out. That's being a teenager. They are still learning, with very busy lives and there's still alot of magical thinking that still happens at that age. Our jobs as registered leaders are to help every scout. Sometimes that does mean being flexible. As for the SM, CC and COR being on the same page, I've learned that often means squat. Strong leaders and group thinking often produces bad results. ... The key is that it's the end of his journey as a scout. The scout has/had time to fulfill the requirements. Unless there were significant extenuating circumstances, I'd help that scout find a POR and put the advancement back in his hands. It doesn't mean I'm going to show up at his Eagle project to help or print out merit badge worksheets or anything else. The scout asked for specific help. For me, I'd work to help solve the issue he's facing simply because he's a scout in my troop and he asked. ... The fact that the scout has committed to serving his country is what makes me extremely disappointed in the troop leadership. Common on. He's good enough to enter the military academy. He's good enough to potentially risk his life for his country. But, he's not good enough for his own troop leaders to support him. Common on. ... ... ... ... IM_Kathy ... I'm mostly fine with what you wrote. POR's are about helping the troop. And scouts often must deal with the consequences of their actions and non-actions. ... It's interesting that your troop requires attending camp to get a POR. (den chief? webmaster? scribe? historian? ... a different discussion) And my sympathies fade quickly when parents get involved and especially if they start putting pressure on another scout. I'd tell the parent to have the scout talk to me. That's a lesson scouts and parents need to learn very early in their scouting career. Usually in those situations, the scout wouldn't ask because it's just not that important to him. But if the scout did ask, I'd try to help. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah, your over zealous adult leader tough love speech is misplaced. It's so thick that my boots got stuck. The fact is a scout started asking for help in his rank advancement well in advance of a requirement deadline and was told tough luck. He's willing to do the work and there's options available. IMHO, that's enough to help the scout. Work with the SPL to find a meaningful POR and let him do the work and complete his rank requirements and earn his rank. Compounding it is his entering the military. IMHO, that's enough penance to correct for almost any other misdeeds. And the fact it's a military academy, I can't believe the kids that bad. The key is get the advancement back into the hands of the scout so he can earn his advancement and so that scouting can leave it's mark on him.

SR540Beaver: "My question is why all of the guys who were scouts as kids aren't coming back to give back now?" IMHO, that's a million dollar question without a single simple answer. I'd hope that the excuse of a busy life is the main reason for most, but I doubt it's that simple. Too many parents are stepping up in their kid's lives. The related question I have is "Why do former scouts not register their kids for scouts?

Beavah wrote: "Everyone needs to go home and write "Advancement and the Eagle Rank are a Method and not a Goal" a hundred times." No one's saying anything different, eh! The problem is it's hardly a useful method when the response is "tough luck kid". The scout's got the time and willing to do the work. It's still up to the scout to earn the rank. It just takes a slight bit of flexibility from the troop. It's not that much to ask. Beavah before you reply, why don't you write a hundred times on the wall: "Compassion is the basis of morality" or "Orthodoxy without compassion is the ugliest thing in the world". Or how about some of Baden-Powell's quotes: "Correcting bad habits cannot be done by forbidding or punishment". Or "See things from the boy's point of view." Or "The most worth-while thing is to try to put happiness into the lives of others." Or "Scoutmasters need to enter into boys ambitions". Or "Scoutmasters deal with the individual boy rather than with the mass." It might be the troop rule to only provide PORs during elections, but there is the option to be more flexible. Sometimes we need to deal with the situation instead of the rule.

"By refusing to allow this Scout to hold a POR your Troop leadership IS indeed making the decision to deny this Scout his Eagle award. " I fully agree. By helping the scout find a meaningful POR, that puts the advancement control in his hands and it's up to him to earn his Eagle.

CubsRgr8 - One more suggestion. Call your district executive and/or scout office. Today. Don't stop until you reach a live person who can actually help. Ask for names of local supportive scoutmasters who would be willing to receive the scout into his troop and help fix the situation. I know I'd be proud of my troop if we received and helped such a scout.

A scout entering the military looking to make Eagle but with tight time constraints on one requirement. Okay. I was trying to be polite earlier. And maybe there's something I still don't understand. But if the situation is anything close to the earlier descriptions.... Time constraint for POR but otherwise other requirements are done or do-able. A scout entering the military and potentially risking his life to serve of your country. Politely said, the scoutmaster needs to rethink the situation. And any leader thinking this situation is okay would quickly lose my respect. Bluntly said, the scoutmaster is a real piece of ####. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

I wasn't thinking of it as using the MB to teach a trade. I was thinking of it as teaching skills that kids don't learn anymore. They might not need them very often, but it's good to be exposed to a variety of topics. It broadens the mind. Wasn't it Baden-Powell who created scouting because he thought kids were stuck in the cities too often without the chance to learn outdoor skills. (.... or at least part of the reason ....) I view it as in contrast to badges such as Communcations. Fifty years ago, I don't think school taught students presentation skills. Now students start doing presentations in 1st grade and many classes regularily include speeches and/or presentations. I'm not saying the communications merit badge is bad. I just think it's not as special as it was 50 years ago. I think there's an arguement that a good portion of the eagle required merit badges are also in this situation. Now, these badges might be great for home schooled kids where they often use the merit badge for assignments. But for students in public schools, many of our merit badges just glance on topics they study year after year in different aspects. That's why I'm glad their developing badges such as Welding.

I wish more of the MBs were like this. Bring back carpentry. Others???? More practical usable skills that don't overlap with high school.

Opted out.... Reasons for not selling - #1 Very high product cost relative to perceived value - #2 Arbitrary product people don't really need - #3 Low profit margin for unit (Our pack is donating some of our fundraiser results to FOS this year.) Suggested changes - Different product - Different profit margin If changed, would you sell - Popcorn ... probably not

Beavah's right. I thought it was valid too, but looked at GTA and it explicitly says it's only for star and life. Not eagle.

I don't know the scout or the situation and the scout was sloppy to leave things to the last moment. But in the scout's defense, most teenagers don't think far in advance. He has time. I always view it as the scoutmaster's job to help every scout. Let the scout succeed or fail on his own. But if a scout came to me asking for help, I'm going to help. Shame on the scoutmaster for essentially saying tough luck. Now there's also no requirement for the SM to bend over backwards. But the good scoutmaster's do. So with that said, call the SM NOW. Figure out the situation. If the SM won't help, he could transfer or go through the process in a protest mode. If the scoutmaster won't help, call the district advancement coordinator tonight! ... OR find another scoutmaster in another troop that will help. Help the scout get through these hurdles. Most of them (dealing with SM attitude or district advancement chair) are beyond a scout's responsibility and reflect adult beurocracy. ... #1 Make sure you use the POR list from the eagle application. That list is different than the PORs acceptable for star and life. #2 See if he has any POR time since his life BOR. POR time can be glued together. #3 Most troop positions are "APPOINTED" and can be appointed at any time. Talk to the SPL ASAP! #4 Also, there is no rule the troop can only have one in a specific position. For example, many troops have multiple ASPL(s) and multiple troop guide(s). It's okay as long as the scouts are actually doing something in their PORs. Avoid giving the scout a POR where he won't fulfill a responsibility. Here's an idea.... See if the SPL has concerns about troop gear or similar. He could appoint a 2nd quartermaster whose sole focus is on tents (check-in and out; inspection; repair and replacement; ...). Or appoint a 2nd ASPL whose sole focus is inspections or seeing that patrols are doing useful activities during the patrol meeting times. #5 There's also the Scoutmaster assigned project. We've done that before. The scout wanted to help fix our attendance records and procedures. A fairly big task and involved changing troop practices. So that was his scoutmaster assigned project. ... Because of the June 12 birthday, he needs a POR on or before Dec 11th (or 12th ... as soon as possible). Less then a week. Don't wait! Call on the phone. See if he can get a POR starting tonight. ... Don't let anything wait. Get moving now. If you can't tell, I've seen this happen before.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah wrote: "Government run pensions (and unregulated private pensions for that matter) are just a bad idea" Agreed. But for the employees (gov works, teachers, police, firefighters, ...), pensions are a good bet because a pension program is basically a government liability paid by the taxpayer. Hard to lose money unless the state declares bankruptcy, if even then. It seems that a big change in our state teacher pensions is that the pension program had relatively few retired teachers from under those contracts in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s when the pension programs grew in benefits. Only in the last ten or twenty years have teachers started entering retirement in mass that are due to benefit from the better pension programs. It will be interesting how that affects state budgets. ... I just don't understand government debt. People like divide national debt by the population to figure out the per person liability. Or divide it by tax payer. National debt ... $43k per citizen. $100k per tax return. But, that's meaningless. The bottom 36% of tax returns have zero income tax liability. The bottom 50% of tax returns only pay 2.7% of all the income taxes. The debt is only meaningful when proportionate to the taxpayer. I probably did it wrong, but I should be in the ball park. Top 1% earners start at $380k. Effective tax rate of 23%. Their share of all income taxes paid is 38% giving them a per person debt liability of $4.2 million each. That's ten years of income or about 40 years of taxes on that same income. Of course their current taxes are used for servicing debt and current programs. Top 5% earners have income starting at $160k and have an average tax rate of 21%. Their share of all income taxes is 58.7%. They have a national debt liability of $1.3 million each. That's eight years of total income as debt or around 40 years of taxes to pay debt (if thsoe taxes weren't already used to pay for something else). I just don't understand government debt. ... Now combine unfunded teacher pensions with current debt liabilities. What does it mean per taxpayer who's footing the bill?(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Gotta love this debate. Anyone using the term socialism in a debate is just blowing smoke and making a political argument. Both republicans and democrats. Liberals and conservatives. Socialism has no EXACT definition anymore unless you add a context source. It's a over-used worn out term. One of the earliest definitions I could find is the Marx/Engels one: a step in the historical process from capitalism toward communism. ... BUT.... There was a post I got a kick out of. quote: "The thing is that liberals generally weren't the ones touting European "socialism." Perhaps, more accurately, some liberals were (and many still are) touting "social democracy," by which people typically mean that a society places more emphasis on collaborative problem solving and a strong social safety net. Social democracy tends to be more widely accepted in most - not all - European states than in the US. Then, of course, painting the varied political & economic systems of 30+ countries in an entire continent with the same brush ("European socialism!") is dangerous and prone to being wildly inaccurate. The differences between, say, the Swiss economy, the Danish economy, the French economy, the Polish economy, and the Greek economy are staggering. Same goes for their political systems. Those differences are more obvious, and more salient, these days." I had to look up social democracy because I've known it for years and thought I understood it. Merriam Webster: a political movement advocating a gradual and peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism by democratic means ... a democratic welfare state that incorporates both capitalist and socialist practices Look up "social democracy" ... "to achieve socialism" ... "economic redistribution" ... "eliminate class disparities" ... Of course, "social democracy" is very different than "democratic socialism" which is more focused on the welfare state and less on socialism. Seriously folks. It all becomes mush at some point. Eventually, the whole debate is just political positioning and ridiculous. .... I like "Jay K"s definition with one modification. I have two cows and the government makes me give one of the cows to my neighbor. But I personally know Jay and he's a good guy. .... I can see both sides of the socialism discussion. It's not simple. I'm a huge huge Ayn Rand fan, but I think her vision is unrealistic and creates a pretty ugly world. I believe in social justice, a safety net (public and private) and using government to create opportunity and to give people help up from bad situations. But I cringe at growing government. I cringe at the size of contracts for most government services and yes including teachers, policeman and firefighters. Their jobs are very hard. But the contracts are huge and generous. And when a union pension program loses money, it's a government bailout. Yes, a simple analysis. It's happened locally to the scale of hundreds of millions of dollars. But wait, didn't we already pay into the pension program? Now we need to pay again for no additional work performed? And the argument in favor of the bailout is how hard and dangerous their jobs were. Wait? Wasn't that argument used to get the contract originally? And that original contract was pretty generous to begin with. Complain to your union steward, not the legislature. Or rather invest as the teacher unions did in tobacco companies. Teacher pension programs made huge profits off tobacco for decades while teaching kids its bad to smoke. And when society changes, those contracts bankrupt local government. As much as I love public schools, I'd love to see school districts split up if nothing else than to reduce costs and to make families value education more. Of course, I want public health care too. I guess I'm one big contradiction. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

September dues are the way to go. Fully agree with momof2cubs and MarinesWife. Families expect to pay at the start of the school year and recruitment happens in September. As such, we get everyone to pay dues all at once and then be done with it. It's just not realistic to expect people to step forward and pay after the year has started. And it's too much for volunteers to chase funds later in the year. ... SeattlePioneer - I sympathize with your challenge. Our troop used to discount dues based on fundraising and other things. But it got to be too much work and too hard to explain. And financially, it was almost a wash with the simple way we are doing it now. Now each scout gets a higher portion of fundraising profits. Right now 80%. We are aiming for 100% profit to the scouts. Our goal is to keep the troop spending within the annual dues. I think we are already there. Now, it's just a matter of good financial discipline to prove that. We treat everything as adjustments to scout accounts. Each scout account looks something like this. Date Charge Balance 9/1/2011 ........ $ 10 Starting balance as of 9/1/2011 9/1/2011 $ -75 $ -65 Annual dues of $75 10/01/2011 $ -30 $ -95 Camp - District camporee 10/01/2011 $ 30 $ -65 Camp - Payment 10/30/2011 $ -200 $-265 Fundraising - Sales total 11/30/2011 $ 200 $ -65 Fundraising - Collected funds 11/30/2011 $ 72 $ 7 Fundraising - Share of profits ... SeattlePioneer wrote: "The real key is understanding that it's not especially important for a Scout to be re registered as part of the rechartering process." Ummm... that depends. I'm not 100% sure of your point. If they are not on the rechartering paperwork, they are technically not scouts. The key issue is if they are not registered they are explicitly "not active" and can't receive advancement. You can still give them stuff, but it would be unofficial. It could be an issue if they ever need clean records for an Eagle application or Arrow of Light award.

Yep. It happens. Some kids are really picky and have been catered to for their whole lives. Heck, of my four sons, two will eat anything. One is slightly picky. One is very picky and would rather just wait to eat when he gets home Sunday if there is nothing he likes. He is slightly less picky on a week long camp out, but he will try to hold out.

Great article... (long read though). This weekend my friend and ASM said "It's easy to let go when your pushing." My new favorite quote. He and I were playing cribbage. One of the newer parents had just finished a game of cribbage with us but wanted to check on his son. And, then ended up driving his son to McDonalds because his son wouldn't eat anything the scouts were having. So the ASM and I were discussing what we could do to have the father on the periphery and not continually interacting with his son. I suggested using a technique effective on both toddlers and teens - switch and distract (i.e. adult hikes, explore the camp, socializing and card games). We can't make the parent leave his own son alone, but we can switch and distract. The ASM had been providing the father quiet advice such as the comment that it takes about a year for cub scouts to get used to being in boy scouts and about three years for the parents. Just friendly hints. After the father left for lunch with his son, the ASM and I continued chatting and playing cribbage. We reflected on if we let our own sons have their own separate scouting experiences. I said that I thought that I did a pretty good job of letting go. The ASM laughed. "It's easy to let go when your pushing." I think he was referring to my having just kicked my own son away from our card game and asking him if he knew where his patrol mate were. I don't ignore my son on camp outs. I just want to make sure that 90% to 95% of his scouting time is spent with scouts.(This message has been edited by fred8033)