fred8033

Myth... Interesting debate. LOL.... The theory that the 25th was borrowed from pagan rituals is also a myth. I'm not a Bible scholar, but from what I've read the first mention of Dec 25th / Jan 6th was around 250 to 300 AD. The 1st written association between the dates was not until a commentator commented on it in 1200 AD. By 1200 AD, Christians had started adopting some pagan practices in their celebrations (Christmas trees???, other).

Then there's the whole shift of the calendars (Gregorian, Julian, ...). (i.e. the 12 days of Christmas). Eventually I get lost. But it is a simplistic myth that Dec 25th is just an adoption of a pagan holiday. Bible scholars I've read recognize the pagan theory as popular myth. Though Christians did not live in isolation, none of the extensive written debate from that era mentions that reasoning. Also, most Christmas pagan traditions didn't get adopted until almost a thousand years later. Did it influenced? I don't know. Was it the only or main reason? No.

The Bible does have some hints on the date (Luke 1), but it's not precise. Ultimately, the dates are chosen by man and chosen to honor God's gifts. That's really all that's important.

On a personal note.... Whether your a Christian, traditionalist or a structuralist, I'll leave that to you. But don't look down on others beliefs. That happened in an evangelical church that my wife happily attended. The only good that happened is that it made me reflect, research and pray and return to my Catholic heritage. Once I understood the teachings, I had to confess my Catholic faith.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Just do it as a friend who's working toward the same goal he. But have the conversation and soon and find a solution. It sounds like his responsibilities have significantly increased since the previous CC left.

It's important to remember that though pack leadership roles appear to have specific responsibilities, it's not official. It's more like here's a bunch of people and what can we do to get the job done.

By the way "Back in 1966...". Ummm... I meant "Back in 1996". I'm old, but not that old.

What people forget is that the "payroll taxes" were essentially designed as "insurance" premiums. Social security was "Old-Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance". Payroll taxes are "FICA" which is "Federal Insurance...".

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So what is it?

INSURANCE ... If you believe it's insurance, then ... If the insurance is underfunded, you raise the premium pretty much on everyone.

GENERAL BENEFIT ... Then everyone should get the same monthly S.S. payment whether you paid payroll taxes on $110k of income or $25k of income. But then you have other major major economic issues to address.

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Now if you raise the taxable cap, do you also raise the limit they use to calculate benefits. Right now, when figuring SS payments, the max income in the calculation is $110k. If you raise the taxable amount, do you raise the max the benefit is calculated at?

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The other thing is these taxes have been going up for years. I'm not sure how many people realize that. Back in 1966, I did my own company taxes. I remember parts of FICA being capped at $67K. Each year it slowly increased until I believe there is no limit now since 1994. That's a huge revenue increase! Also, there's another pending increase about to happen. Currently, it is 2.9%, individual plus company match. Starting in 2013, it is 2.9% up to $200K (single) or $250k (married). Over that, it's 3.8%.

The key is the effective payroll taxes have been going up for decades.

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I just get tired of the class warfare arguements. It's just a bunch of hate mongering where the 99% blaming their bad times on the a smaller group.

Personally, I'd rather see medicare go away and just create a national health coverage program for all US citizens.

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I should also admit I hate the idea of passing a bill that only extends things two months. That is an incredibly expensive way of doing things. If I remember my readings, "how long" is one of the points of difference.

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I don't know the right answer, but I am tired of the blame game.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Jay - Can you "scan" that treatise in for us?

The power point presentation actually reminds me a lot of my learning as I learned about advancement, but I agree that it is just too long. It is better suited as the outline for a 30 page paper.

Here's a wild suggestion. How about cutting it down to about 10 to 12 slide. One slide for each sub-section of section 8 (BORs) in the Guide To Advancement. For the handout, give them a printed copy of section 8 of the GTA. Don't bother covering the ugly stuff (over 18, disputed BOR, appeals, ...) http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

Don't bother trying to create yet another summary. Get them to start reading what BSA publishes. That's ultimately what most of us hope starts happening (i.e. people start following BSA publications and not just repeating troop traditions). Heck, if you get them to read GTA section 8, maybe they will wonder what the other sections cover and read them too.

In any event, nice job on the learning and the effort. That was not easy and reflects a lot of thinking about what's supposed to happen.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

dlearyous wrote: "Why does it state that a Scout shall not be responsible for requesting that a board take place?"

I think this comes from both the Boy Scout Handbook and also Guide To Advancement section 8.0.0.2. "When he believes he has completed all the requirements, including a Scoutmaster conference, it is up to the unit leader and committee to assure a board of review is held.

There might be some leeway for interpretation, but the next GTA sentence is: "Scoutmasters, for example, do not have authority to expect a boy to request one, or to defer him, or to ask him to perform beyond the requirements in order to be granted one."

Basementdweller - We just charge everyone the same and believe it all washes out to be fair in the end. For us, we decided that keeping it simple was more fair. But that's our pack and not a general rule.

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The trouble with dues is that there's never really a balance. It's not a scout account. It goes into a general fund to be used to cover pack expenses. If other packs share the dues of people who transfer out of their pack, it's only through their good graces. There is no obligation.

I often get confused as to which comes first. OA as an honor society or OA as a brotherhood of cheerful service. It's clear OA is more about ceremonials then activities. But is that bad?

- How about an OA only event at summer camp? Say the normal bed time is 10pm. At that time, OA members silently leave camp and head to a special issolated camp fire program only for them. Of course with treats, fun and other perks to make it special.

"silent member" ... Great! That's an excellent way to communicate a core aspect of adult leadership.

Sasha - Good luck. These situations are never fun.

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Side discussion...

twocubdad wrote: "When I was pack CC we had a Webelos II den of about four boys which refuesd to pay pack dues. The DL felt since they had already paid the BSA dues they didn't need to pay for the six or seven months until crossover (she was a bit wacko, never really understood what her issue was.) "

We've had those too. We usually resolved it by discussing pack expenses. The Webelos years are very expensive to the pack.

My 1st pack only charged 50% for the 2nd Webelos year because it was half a year and they were not rechartered to the pack. BUT, then I started seeing the expense reports. The Webelos years are expensive. Our pack has very few expenses for advancements for Tiger, Wolf and Bear ranks ... except belt loops. Webelos is expensive with $1.69 per pin. Plus special shoulder colors. Rank badge. Arrow of Light badge. Scout book. Graduation arrows (if pack purchases them). And belt loops too.

I get a kick out of your solution. If a whole den refuses to pay dues, then let them purchase and coordinate their own advancements. I'd work like heck to avoid that situation, but I do like it.

Are your dues relatively small? Less then $150. Is your pack at all financially healthy?

If so, make the problem go away. It's fighting a losing battle, distracting and wasting time over what is probably a minor amount of money. The key is that trying to fairly resolve the situation just promotes hard feelings and prolongs a really bad situation.

Wave their dues for the year and swallow the cost. Then, you can focus on the fun of scouting. At least it sounds like the council is willing to register them not at your cost. That's great. My answer depends on the health of your pack finances. If at all healthy, make the issue go away and not talk about it.

The most important thing is to get this family having a positive scouting experience. By waving the dues, you'll win their gratitude. You can ask the other pack for a refund, but their position is probably that the family choose to leave. Not their issue. Dues are not like a deposit into a scout account.

If you had thirty families in this situation, my answer would have been different.

At least it sounds like the district is familiar with the issue. Hopefully, they can pay some attention to the other pack and maybe provide some training, guidance, advice or other.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

basementweller - Nice post. I think it works the same way at the district level.

"one person cannot or will not change the Good old boys club or status quo. "

That's just not my experience. Scouters are volunteers and welcome new volunteers to keep the program going.

My experience is district/council has plenty of holes to fill and are always looking for people to help, new energy, new enthusiasm and fresh ideas. A few committees like advancement tend to want to know the people pretty well first before welcoming volunteers. But even there, they are always looking for good volunteers to help.

The accused "Good old boys clubs" or "political problems" tend to be more human interaction issues. And usually occur when someone's already doing a job and the group is generally happy. Then, someone steps in saying it should be done differently. It offends people and can start labeling past hard work and successes as failures.

The challenge is how to make change. ... and to know when to step back and recognize the values of how it's being done now.

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For myself, three years ago there were two issues at district that kept bugging me. I volunteered for one and have been doing it for three years now. The other I got to know the people involved and worked for a change. And it eventually happened. When I think of significant changes at district level in the last three years, I'm proud to say that I've helped drive a good number of them. I don't care who gets the knot or the formal recognition. I just enjoy being part of the group (and a fair bit of joking around when we socialize).

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As for council supporting units, that's another discussion. Most ways councils do support units but there are a few very visible thorns.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I see well over a hundred new members at the ordeal weekend. They do four ceremonies split between two fire rings. Our troop gets two to five scouts elected and through the ordeal each year. Our troop passes on the information from OA and OA members are also contacted directly by their chapter. I'm just not sure how much more is expected.

I should mention our council does have a OA led youth training camp out each spring. It's like a university of scouting for youth, but on a camp out. Great event and great for OA activities.

I like the idea of the OA running the camporee. Interesting idea. Not sure of challenges with time of year overlapping ordeal weekend. Interesting though.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I'm not arguing against OA at all. I like OA. I think it's a good idea. I'm just always sad that ... from what I see ... it's promise does not match the reality. But I am mostly on the outside and can only speak to the experience of scouts from our unit. The only significant involvement I see is the scout going through the ordeal. Then, mostly nothing, even for the OA reps.

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Side note ... we've had many scouts do high adventures (troop and council contingents) and I can't think of a single one in the last ten years that took advantage of OA service opportunities for a high adventure trip. It might be a coordination issue though because of travel plans and adults and such. It's probably a major coordination issue to figure out who can provide half their time in service, adjust treks appropriately and make sure there are sufficient adult leaders. Perhaps, I'll suggest this for the ntier as they are relatively close by. It would reduce cost drastically. Heck, I'd be up for that. Especially, if it saves us $400 or more per person.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

.... ummmm .... but .... wait .... dang .... nothing.

.... Nope. ... Still nothing

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I did consider the definition of "diatribe". I'm absolutely fine with all three of the contexts below. You should look up the definition and consider the other persons perspective before suggesting there is an issue with a term.

Diatribe

1 archaic : a prolonged discourse

2 : a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing

3 : ironic or satirical criticism

Scoutmasters aren't a god. Rarely do they need to pass judgement and very rarely do they ever need to say no to something that's not a safety issue. The scout's on his 2nd pass looking to solve an obstacle. The most important thing a scoutmaster can do is to help put control of advancement back in the hands of the scout. If it was five months left, then the scoutmaster would not be saying no. He'd be pointing out a fact. If there was no way to honestly solve the requirements, then the scoutmaster would not be saying no. But it can be done and very easily done and then it's up to the scout to fulfill the requirements.

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qwazse: "The impending military career, noble as it is, can sometimes be a "wake-up" call to go after Eagle. The sudden realization that a boy might get a bump in pay-grade is enough to motivate some boys who three months earlier were dismissive of the badge."

LOL. We have a scout in that exact situation in our troop right now. I have no issue with it. If it's what the scout values, I'll support him. It's still up to him to follow through on his requirements. It's his vision and my job as his leader to support him and not to look for reasons to say no.

It's no different than if at summer camp you have a few scouts who like to climb or ride horses. When reserving troop times, I'd watch/remind the SPL of those scouts so that he can work it into his priorities and maybe schedule a troop climb or a troop horseback ride.

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah - Method goals method goals method goals. Thanks for the lecturing diatribe and for being the fountain of all wisdom and for feeling responsible to post it over and over again. But the point is the scout is at the end of his journey as a scout and is asking for help to achieve something he has now decided he values for what ever reason. Though not required to help, any good scoutmaster should.

This has nothing to do with the perceived value of other ranks or the advancement path of other scouts or even a comparative analysis of the application of goals and methods.

This has to do with one young man reaching out for help to solve a relatively minor obstacle and the compassion of his troop leadership.

emb01 replied to my comment: "But after the ordeal, there's not much for the OA members other than to say they are in the OA or to help administer OA." .... "Really?"

Sorry as much as I like and support OA, it just seems that way to me.

Administrative - Ordeal weekend ... Huge event just for our chapter with hundreds and hundreds of attendees

Administrative - Annual banquet ... Our chapter sends ten or so... I guess ... never attended

Administrative - Conclave / conferences (sectional or national) ... Maybe a few go from the whole chapter

Activity - camp service weekends ... No one from our unit has ever attended even though we have two to five scouts elected each year.

Activity - lock in / overnight ... Might have had one of our scouts attend one once.

Activity - One day of service ... New to me. Not familiar with it.

Activity - Arrow corps ... None of our scouts. It's like jumping to OA high adventure from doing almost nothing.

Activity - Summit corps ... Same comment

Activity - Jamboree work ... Same comment

Our OA reps often attend a few OA monthly meetings but then fall away from those too.

Our troop supports OA in that we pass on information and hold elections. But we don't push OA involvement. OA involvement is up to the scouts and OA.

Now I'm mostly an outsider as I'm pretty much a once a year OA brotherhood member who likes being an adult laundry guy at the ordeal weekends.

This might be a side discussion point, but when scouters don't support OA might be because they just don't see that much to it. Our biggest OA events are ordeal weekends. Our chapter is huge with about 200(??) new members for the last few years. But after the ordeal, there's not much for the OA members other than to say they are in the OA or to help administer OA. I bet it's just 10 to 20 members our of the chapter that are active. And that's after 200+ join each year.

The guts of the program should be three or four times bigger than the joining events. With that said, the national park service events have been a huge improvement. And I look forward to OA service weekends after a few of my sons are grown. Other than that though, most of the OA activities that I see have to do with administering OA.

My apologies as I like the idea of OA. I just always wonder about the guts of the program.

Beavah - The facts are as stated in the column. Of course if different facts, then there's a different conclusion. Your arguments of ignorance and other red herring arguments just trigger distracting diatribes that don't help anyone. And be careful in your facts too, you don't know his troop leaders ran the program for seven years or that this kid was in the troop all those years or that the leaders contributed to the scout wanting to serve his country. That's not in the facts and now your jumping to conclusions.

What's in the facts is that the scout is reaching out for help to an ASSISTANT SCOUTMASTER in his troop and that ASM is now wondering what can be done. Yes, it's a tight timeline but it was easily within the requirements when he reached out. That's being a teenager. They are still learning, with very busy lives and there's still alot of magical thinking that still happens at that age. Our jobs as registered leaders are to help every scout. Sometimes that does mean being flexible.

As for the SM, CC and COR being on the same page, I've learned that often means squat. Strong leaders and group thinking often produces bad results.

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The key is that it's the end of his journey as a scout. The scout has/had time to fulfill the requirements. Unless there were significant extenuating circumstances, I'd help that scout find a POR and put the advancement back in his hands. It doesn't mean I'm going to show up at his Eagle project to help or print out merit badge worksheets or anything else.

The scout asked for specific help. For me, I'd work to help solve the issue he's facing simply because he's a scout in my troop and he asked.

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The fact that the scout has committed to serving his country is what makes me extremely disappointed in the troop leadership. Common on. He's good enough to enter the military academy. He's good enough to potentially risk his life for his country. But, he's not good enough for his own troop leaders to support him. Common on.

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IM_Kathy ... I'm mostly fine with what you wrote. POR's are about helping the troop. And scouts often must deal with the consequences of their actions and non-actions. ... It's interesting that your troop requires attending camp to get a POR. (den chief? webmaster? scribe? historian? ... a different discussion)

And my sympathies fade quickly when parents get involved and especially if they start putting pressure on another scout. I'd tell the parent to have the scout talk to me. That's a lesson scouts and parents need to learn very early in their scouting career. Usually in those situations, the scout wouldn't ask because it's just not that important to him.

But if the scout did ask, I'd try to help.

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Beavah, your over zealous adult leader tough love speech is misplaced. It's so thick that my boots got stuck.

The fact is a scout started asking for help in his rank advancement well in advance of a requirement deadline and was told tough luck. He's willing to do the work and there's options available. IMHO, that's enough to help the scout. Work with the SPL to find a meaningful POR and let him do the work and complete his rank requirements and earn his rank.

Compounding it is his entering the military. IMHO, that's enough penance to correct for almost any other misdeeds. And the fact it's a military academy, I can't believe the kids that bad.

The key is get the advancement back into the hands of the scout so he can earn his advancement and so that scouting can leave it's mark on him.

SR540Beaver: "My question is why all of the guys who were scouts as kids aren't coming back to give back now?"

IMHO, that's a million dollar question without a single simple answer. I'd hope that the excuse of a busy life is the main reason for most, but I doubt it's that simple. Too many parents are stepping up in their kid's lives.

The related question I have is "Why do former scouts not register their kids for scouts?