fred8033

basementdweller wrote: "We also print it as an agenda." basementdweller... Is it nice and compact or sort of clunky looking? How many pages does it take to print out your yearly calendar?

Importance... - for open houses - for prospective parents - for during PLC meetings - for during committee meetings - for parents that just don't read email or browse the web - for scouts to keep in the handbook Just thinking about it. It's really really needed. As much as our scoutmaster likes our web solution, he's grumbled for years at not having a good printed calendar to refer too after stopping maintaining a second version in Microsoft Word.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

FehlerI'm not sure how you got the Google web site to print six months of calenadr on one page. I can't see that option. With Google Agenda layout, our calendar is printed as 10 pages. The web page Google "Agenda" calendar is close when viewed on the screen. Each date is one line. If we could remove the horizontal line separting dates, it would compact futher. There are other issues too such as all the surrounding junk and multi-day events taking multiple lines. But the Google "Agenda" - PRINT - result is bad. It creates five lines per entry. One for the date and only the date. Another line for times and title. Another line for where. Another line for calendar name. Another for created by. AND ... another for a blank line separator. Plus a multi-day event is represented once for each day. So summer camp schedule would require a full page instead of just one line item. The Google "Agenda" print result is ten pages for our troop. That's really not compact at all. Got 80 scouts in one unit and 50 in another. That's 800 pages and 500 pages of paper. 400 pages and 250 if double sided. .... We just need something like the following ... that we can quickly print out. SOAR can't do it. Google can't. Looking for an option ---- 2011 --------------------------------------- Mon Jan 16 6:45pm Troop meeting location Fri Jan 20 - 22 6:00pm Campout - Winter sports location Mon Jan 23 6:30pm PLC leaders meeting location Mon Jan 23 7:00pm committee meeting location Thu Feb 2 7:00pm Roundtable location Fri Feb 3 - 4 6:00pm Camp out - Northern adv location Mon Feb 6 6:45pm Troop meeting location Mon Feb 20 6:45pm Troop meeting location Mon Feb 27 6:30pm PLC leaders meeting location Mon Feb 27 7:00pm Committee meeting location> (lined up by column ... can't figure out how to do it here)

I should admit I'm disappointed in the SOAR vendor. I've asked for this feature for four years and every request has been blown off and instead the new feature sets have to do with pretty colors or other esoteric stuff.

Does anyone have a good solution for producing a printable calendar? As much as I like our web vendor, SOAR, and had been in the past a huge proponent for them in our area, the web vendor has been a total failure for providing a printable calendar. Our unit (both troop and pack) views our web sites as far more for the parent then the scout. In fact, the last thing our troop wants to do is send the scout to the internet for any troop related activity (registering for camp, checking attendance lists, ...). For our Boy Scouts, parents and prospective parents, we'd like to be able to hand them a short (one page, maybe two) page calendar that represents the next year. This means every entry would need to be at most one line and briefly formatted. We'd like to hand it out at courts of honor, at open houses and on request. Right now we are screwed. It's just too hard to get two or three different calendars to match up and do it continualy and have it accurate every moment. So we'd like to focus on keeping all data in one place and having it print the calendars. Is there another web vendor with this capability? TroopTrack.com looks very promising. We are tempted to switch if they work out. But I'm just not sure. Any constructive suggestion is welcome. We are really desparate for a solution.

Twocubdad wrote: "From the troop's point of view, we need to consider that Eagle projects are now fully troop functions, with the leaders ultimately responsible, two-deep leadership and tour permits required, etc. That was not necessarily the case with the old guidelines. As such, the troop leadership has a responsibility to know what is going on. Certainly health and safety is a concern, but I'm not necessarily going to commit troop resources to an activity without some plan in place. " Hmmmmmm. I need to think thru this. In our troop, Eagle projects have never been coordinated or even discussed during leadership meetings... except announcing someone passed his EBOR. They don't show on the troop calendar. We support but have never kept them on the radar. It's fully a scout responsibility. In fact, we sometimes get frustrated when an Eagle candidate schedules a work weekend on a weekend we've scheduled a camping trip. The new eagle workbook on the last page does say under risk mgmt: "Projects are considered part of a units program and are treated as such with regard to policies, procedures, and requirements regarding Youth Protection, two-deep leadership, etc." I interpret that for policies and processes and to make sure everyone knows the BSA safety sweet sixteen applies. Not a statement that the troop leadership needs to be involved. I don't see any further guidance in the GTA, G2SS or eagle workbook. Hmmmm..... I just don't know yet. I'd prefer it's a scout responsibility and not have the troop leaders hovering over his project for process compliance. I just don't know yet.

AvidSM: I just re-read section 9.0.2.8. I had scanned it before without absorbing it. Wow. Nicely worded. I love the admonition to keep focus on the eagle requirement intent (lead a project giving service to others) and avoid technicalities and avoid making "object lessons". Incredibly well worded sub-section. I've seen way too much scouting enthusiasm killed by "object lessons" that declare failure from successes.

Mad Max: I'm just learning too and had to re-read that section a few times. I think AvidSM's interpretation is correct and not loose at all. The "only" applies to using the official BSA eagle workbook. Districts and units can't say ... oh we've thought thru it and made changes that we feel are necessary. So here's the workbook you will use on your project. "Only the official workbook" is the key phrase. The wording following "only the official workbook" backs that up. I see nothing that says a scout can't record more information elsewhere. For most projects, a detailed diagram, schematic, timeline, shopping list, time and attendance records, volunteer scheduling, donation list and such will be needed. Letters will have to be written. Invites sent. There's a lot of paper produced during an eagle project. For anything done in life, a plan occurs. It might be just in your head or written down. Eagle projects are significant work and, as such, planning occurs and records are created. So when the EBOR evaluates leadership, what do they look at? Probably the SM's signature is good. But if they want to understand, bringing any records might help. Though the final plan can't be required, can other records be required? Not sure yet. The GTA section 9.0.1.5 does say to submit attachments. But that's vague. It's just that the scout is not "required" to create a final plan. BUT ... he's still responsible for the topics listed in the final plan as he owns and leads his project. You can't lead a project with addressing the final plan topics. So it's natural that an EBOR will try to understand how he addressed those as part of leading the project. Seeing evidence of that leadership is important. So the big big big challenge is if a scout produced no physical evidence of leadership (paper documents) other than the proposal and final report and pictures. The EBOR is only left with the EBOR questioning. If that questioning does not feel sufficient to the EBOR members, what happens? It might be approval, denial or suspension with a request to supply documents and evidence created during the project. ... I told our current candidate to archive everything. Print out computer files, emails and web pages. Three hole punch paper and put it in a binder. Tape in receipts. Keep it semi-organized. Use it as the story of your project.

Tampa Turtle wrote: "mostly to show that no one is above the work." Fully agree. Scouts lead and run the clean up. But there's no worse example than adults just sitting around while work needs to be done. Doesn't mean we do the scouts job. But it's not adults versus scout jobs. It's not we got our stuff done, so we can sit. Weight: Our troop only has a few things that are too heavy for one scout to carry. Such as a car port tent. Nothing is heavy enough to require an adult to help. And almost everything can be carried by one scout including the cook kits. Or two if it's bulky (not heavy) and a small scout.

On Sunday everyone is thinking about getting home. It's a huge distraction ... for scouts AND adults. Plus, adults are trying to make it to church and parents are hoping their kids get home to make it to church too. So the answer is DEPENDS... If a short drive (less than 50 miles), we pack, clean and eat usually a cold breakfast. Scouts are dropped off at their houses. Our drivers prefer it as it's less waiting and significantly less standing around saying goodbye. Plus the families appreciate not having to wait in a parking lot. And it removes the stress timing the departure perfectly to arrive at a certain time. I remember being in a troop that dropped everyone at church at a certain time. It was incredibly annoying to wait at camp until a specific time so that we could hit church at just the right time. Or waiting at church for the late parent. There's always two or three of them. If a long drive (over 150 miles), we try to make Sunday meaningful. Good breakfast. An activity, a unique/special tour or other excursion. Stop for lunch on the road.

Eagle92: Points well taken. I bet 95% of the district advancement committees nation wide are grumbling. I think that's also exactly why BSA added pages 21 and 22 to the workbook. Those pages are very well written.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Twocubdad ... The examples you wrote could have been pulled directly from our troop. I know multiple over 18 year old excellent kids who gave up on advancement because of the horror stories getting Eagle projects approved. I know scouts who had their proposals bounced for ridiculous reasons. Now you can debate the emphasis on Eagle and the priorities and what not. But it should not take 3+ months to get a proposal approved. It should not take a 30+ page paper. I really like the new workbook because it gets the scouts away from the bureaucracy side and focus more on driving a service project for others and leading and taking responsibility for that service being done. IMHO, the workbook is dead on the mark. I also like the section that warns the parents about process changes and such. Really cool. Good luck both of you. It will be an interesting year.

papadaddy wrote: "I could understand it if there was a decrease in professional staff (and salaries) ... " Hmmm.... That raises a good question. Just curious. Not trying to incite something. How many professionals are in your council? Our council has 80 professionals listed on the contact page. It does NOT include scout store staff, but does include nine camp rangers for seven camps. Just curious.

WEB PRESENCE - For an online web presence... I partially agree with basement dweller. Custom web sites are obsolete and to be avoided. But critical features are lost if you go with a totally generic provider (i.e. Google or Facebook). Roster mgmt (patrol, parent/child association, rank, other advancement info). From roster, automatic mailing lists based on patrol and other info. Automatic newsletters. Security (parent level, leader, web admin). Most provide picture and file hosting. But there's still alot to be said for a site targeting scouting. Our unit uses SOAR. Calendar integrates nicely with Google, Apple and Microsoft calendars. http://www.soarol.com Another option is ScoutLander.com. They are okay but the SOAR has more very useful features. ADVANCEMENT - As for tracking progress and other details, TroopMaster is showing it's age. we use it only because we have many scouts that have 6+ years of advancement history in it. It's a big commitment to switch to another tool and the tools are evolving quickly. We use ScoutTrack.com for cubs. It works great and it's new TroopTrack.com looks sharp. BUT ... do we want to put six years of data in it? Or are we content to stay with TroopMaster. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Quick correction. The applicable GTA sections are 9.0.1.5 and 8.0.3.0 (sub-point 8)

Mad Max: I was honest with my apologies. It's just one of my hot buttons. I always cringe anticipating the direction the point will go. Your points are on target and it will be interesting to see how things shake out. We all suffer from "magical" thinking at times. If a scout can get an approved proposal, I can see them not wanting to invest in more paperwork. Depending on the scout and the project, it might be okay. A detail oriented, five year SPL wanting to pull buckthorn? Sure, will probably go okay. Any significant construction project? No. The new process really escalates the importance of a good scoutmaster and good project coach that stay involved and watch what's going on. For our troop, that's okay. We'll gladly bite that bullet compared to the approval BS (not an abbreviation for Boy Scout) that was happening a few years ago. But I do fear for scouts and beneficiaries if that final plan is not done or done well. It's not a matter of the EBOR or earning Eagle, it's whether their service project is something they will be proud of and also useful to the beneficiary ... or just an ugly situation for everyone. Still though, I really like the new workbook and process. It seems like it lets the scout take ownership and responsibility for the results. I view the old jumping through hoops process to get an approval as trying to please someone and not necessarily as taking responsibility. I know plenty of scouts (and parents) who got approvals but spoke openly of their contempt for the process. That's not taking ownership or responsibility. That's just chasing a signature. And ya know the "scamming" scout and adults would probably have tried to scam the old system too. Anyway ... good luck. These conversations will be going on for years to come.

Nice article ... except I wish it was a requirement that the chief scout always be photographed outside and in uniform. Hard to promote an outdoor program in a suit on a comfy executive leather chair. Google BP. He's always in his scout uniform if it's scout related. And almost always in uniform still when not scout related. LOL.

Mad Max wrote: "I also feel a huge responsibility to my fellow Eagle Scouts in keeping a high standard." You know that's exactly one of the statements that always makes me cringe and not want to be in scouts. Eagle is just a rank and not a better-than-thou club. It's one of my hot buttons along with comments about how the eagle rank should be special or rare or we are producing too many. Those may or may not be valid points when re-working the GTA or debating rank requirements. But I hope that's never part of the discussion when deciding how to treat our scouts. I know that's probably not what you meant. And I can appreciate the sincere feelings. So my apologies. It's just that the statement always makes me think the person is approaching the subject with the wrong attitude. I really wish I'd never hear such quotes again. We're there to support the current scouts. We are NOT there to protect guys who used to be scouts twenty, thirty, forty or fifty years ago. Again my apologies. ... eisely wrote: "Even if no EBOR ever sees a completed project workbook" It's still required to be submitted (GTA section 9.0.1.5) and to be provided for EBOR review (GTA section 8.0.1.5). Other than questioning the scout, the workbook is really the only piece that can be used to evaluate if the scout led his project. That's the only criteria I can see a scout failing an EBOR for other than scout spirit. But given that negative EBOR results are so rare to begin with, I'm not sure if it will make it more or less rare. I agree with Mad Max that this will take time to work out. ... Though I think the workbook has very good wording about the "Final Plan" and I like that the Final Plan does not need formal approval, but it almost sounds as "Gosh, I don't have to do a final plan." I'm scared for scouts who read it that way. I wish the workbook did have more explicit wording that the scout is expected to address the contents of the final plan and the workbook is the scouts opportunity to communicate his final plans. Even if it's addressed as "Not applicable because ....". I really fear for the scouts and the beneficiaries if the scout blows off the final plan. ... AvidSM wrote very good comments. I really like what you said. I fully agree .... except the workbook is still required. GTA section 9.0.1.5 and GTA section 8.0.1.5. I fear for the scout that submit a workbook with an empty final plan. Does he have to use it line by line? No. Does he have to write a novel? No. I think it would be okay to say something like "See printout from iCal" and then attach it. Or even just attach it. BUT, you can't submit nothing. IMHO, if a scout submitted a workbook with an empty final plan and did not include anything else, I'd be hard pressed to let it go. IMHO, it or it's equivalent is required. I'd ask how the scout planned his project. If it's on his phone, then I'd ask him to walk thru how he used his phone and SHOW IT TO US ON THE PHONE. If not with him, I'd suggest suspending the EBOR and asking the scout to provide some amount of the materials he used to plan / coordinate his project. Though the final plan is not "APPROVED", demonstrating that the scout addressed the content is still expected. (i.e. required) If he can't demonstrate he addressed the final plan content, how can the EBOR evaluate if he led his project.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Twocubdad - I'm with ya dude. You said it very well. I'm not big either way on the one or more day issue, but it needs to be big enough to show leadership. And that's discussed in multiple places in the new workbook. I'm a huge advocate for the new workbook. Anyway, nicely said. Happy New Year!(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Does anyone actually prefer the Centennial? Some parts but quality problems far outweigh the improvements. Pants that wear out and tear in six months. Stick on letters that fall off. Buttons that fall off. Seams that unravel. Belt buckles that suffer metal fatigue and break during a hike! The major improvement is the elimination of red epaulets and other flashy uses of red. I think the money was spent on marketing hype and not on good basic materials.

the committee (which had previously resigned en masse in protest of the new system) There's been grumbling in our district too. I just keep my mouth shut as I really like the changes and was frustrated at some of the self-important stuff that was happening. I love the emphasis on service and that the planning supports the service. Workbook quote: "These elements must not overshadow the project itself, as long as the effort was well led, and resulted in otherwise worthy results acceptable to the beneficiary." Love that. I also like that the new workbook makes the 2.5 page proposal a "proposal" and not a "plan". It is far more managable than the research paper our district required in the past. In fact, the candidate I'm working with invested about two hours in his proposal before approval. The only attachment were a few hand drawn diagrams. But they were very good diagrams. I'll take that any day over the submissions that were sent back for update two or three times because of silly requests like ... didn't include a map to the hospital ... didn't list the size of the screws needed ... didn't supply a detailed plan for how volunteers would be recruited ... didin't list source of the shovels. ... The big issue I see is that the district/EBOR never "officially" gets to see the final plan unless the eagle candidate "chooses" to bring the final plan with to the EBOR. The district approver did repeatedly emphasize the importance of doing the final plan and suggested strongly bringing it with to the EBOR. As the coach, I am also re-inforcing those statements. I fear for the scout and the beneficiary if the scout blows off the final plan. Any detail oriented project could get ugly and/or fail. But I'll take that risk any day over the situation we had in the past. Mad Max - I agree that the EBOR should be more of a celebration than a meat grinder. Some of the EBOR's I've sat on had a chairman that wanted to make it a challenging, pound-of-flesh experience. I don't really care for that at all. What's the purpose and how's that reflected in BSA publications? Now the EBOR will have little power to evaluate the Eagle project. But to be honest, did they ever really effectively evaluate the project. Heck, if the beneficiary signed off, on what basis would a EBOR have for negatively evaluating the project, in the old or new system?

Whether it causes hard feelings or not, I'd pass it on to the DE or SE. Don't contact the CE. Let the paid guys deal with the CE (charter org exec) and the unit. I'd only mention the new family comments and alude to the previous communication. "Two years ago I let you know of my seeing alcohol at Pack ### events. Our pack just received a new scout from that pack and they gave one reason of transfering being the use of alcohol during pack events." Reference the details as it does affect whether it is an educational situation or a get these guys out of scouting situation. Then move on and never mention it again to anyone.

Report to your district exec. Copy your scout executive. Document what the new family said. Document what you saw years ago. Keep an archive copy for yourself including the names of the DE and SE you contacted. Then, never repeat the story again to anyone. Ask anyone in your pack who brings it up to never bring it up again. If it's brought up in other groups, avoid the discussion or leave.

Kudu wrote: "As punishment, I'd make him watch "Patton" and report back on what happens to great leaders who don't understand the politics of self-censorship." Great answer. But with the addition that the adults involved must supply the popcorn and Mountain Dew. And that I get to watch the movie too.

KC9DDI wrote: "You can't just respond to ideas and positions you don't agree with by telling people to shut up and go away. " It's ignorant to assume I don't agree or that I'm telling people to shut up and go away. Read to understand before reacting. When my seven year old tells me he's hungry, I feed him. When he tells me he's still hungry, I find something more for him. When he tells me he's hungry five minutes later, I might find something more for him. If he tells me he's hungry again within another five minutes, it's a very different issue all together. That is what I was commenting on. KC9DDI wrote: "There's a difference between not wanting to listen to an opinion you disagree with, versus not wanting people to be allowed to express opinions you disagree with. The impression I was getting from your previous post, Fred, was that you fell into the later category. I apologize if I misinterpreted your position. Apology accepted. The example I often use is when I entered into a friendship to later realize the guy only wanted me in his Amway network. Same thing here. This is a site for discussing scouting issues. But if your only desire is being a social protester, your going to get a bad name for yourself ... independent of your beliefs.