fred8033

The problem is not price or fit for me. I've had three pair rip. Yeah, I exchanged them, but it gets old. Very old. The old official pants NEVER torn or worn out. They went for years and years. The material in the new pants is just not that durable. I've given up on the official pants.

TroopTrack.com and ScoutTrack.com are not related at all. ScoutTrack.com is an old fashioned interface once you start using it. Think IBM mainframe. TroopTrack.com is a new company. The confusion is because the two companies bought their graphics from the same person. ScoutTrack.com only uses the graphics for their marketing pages. I feel very bad for TroopTrack.com as they are the new product and have been burned by it. ----------------------- SOAR is very good. If anyone wants a google app script to print out their SOAR calendar in a nice usable layout, message me. I've tried to get SOAR guy to implement such a page but he's blown off my requests for four years now. Not the nicest experience at all with that. But SOAR is still by far the best product. ----------------------- Advancement .... SOAR does not do advancement. We combine TroopMaster.Net and SOAR for advancement. SOAR & TroopMaster is a very good solution. If you want an integrated solution use, try TroopTrack.com. TroopTrack.com is a newer product. I'd be interested to watch how it develops. I had a chat with the owner and he sounds very supportive.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Eagle69 wrote: 'The only part that will cause us a bit of headache is the fact that it is now an "official" troop function.' There's no change in how troops work with eagle projects. It's the candidates project. It's only part of the troop program from the view of policies, procedures, G2SS, etc.

SOAR is the best match I've found so far. They lack a few key features such as a printable calendar, but I've written google app scripts to get around that shortcoming. - Generic Google or Yahoo solutions lack the benefit of scouting specific features. Such as multiple automatic mailing lists generated off the roster for patrol/den specific emailings, leader specific, everyone, etc. - ScoutTrack.com is great for managing advancement. But it means not using TroopMaster anymore. Good and bad. We've used it for years to manage the cub scout pack. - The one I'm watching with interest is TroopTrack.com. Love the interface. But, I need to figure out if the feature set and usability are better than SOAR.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

hicountry: Your advice is very practical and it gets the job done. And in every day life I might even do that. But it's a classic ethics lesson. I'd have a real hard time coaching the scout to keep two sets of books. That's really what's being suggested. An official statement that you actually sign your name on saying the info is true and accurate. The scout's putting his word and character on line saying the numbers are right. And a second set of books that tracks the actual donations. Not cool. It may work and it's just a little omission, but it leaves out the scout oath and law. At that point, it's better to just not do the project. Seriously. (Plus if this was a real business or non-profit with real size money, doing something like that is fraud. Yeah people might do it all the time, but it's still mis-reporting donations/income and creating a false financial statement. ) The better solution is to teach the scout what's right and to tell him to do what's right and to tell him that you'll be there to take the heat if someone has a problem with it. Then be there for him and work to get things fixed. That's our job as adult leaders. Shield the scout from the stupidity of other well meaning, but misinformed adult leaders. The scouts job is to work the obstacles and headaches of his project. Our job is to work the obstacles and headaches of other adults.

Mad Max wrote: "No wonder BSA wants these things to become Unit events." Only in terms of following BSA policies, procedures and Guide To Safe Scouting. Not in terms of coordination and planning.

twocubdad: Agree with your comments. Perhaps one area that's not 100% clear that I'm still trying to understand is ... "While it is now explicit that Eagle Projects are fully considered troop programs". I think that overstates the new situation. The eagle workbook has it on page 22 under "Risk Management". It says ... "Projects are considered part of a units program and are treated as such with regard to policies, procedures, and requirements regarding Youth Protection, two-deep leadership, etc. The health and safety of those working on Eagle projects must be integrated with project execution. As with any Scouting activity, the Guide to Safe Scouting applies." I think this is a reaction to the past where some argued that G2SS, youth protection, two deep and other BSA safety requirements did not apply to eagle projects. The argument was that eagle projects were not part of the unit program. I think this is a good change. But, ... IMHO ... eagle projects are not "fully" part of the troop program as troop committees won't be monitoring eagle projects. Also, we don't need to show them on the troop calendar or have the troop make announcements about them. Yes, it's fully part of the program for policies, procedures and safety rules. No, it's not fully part of the troop program as for planning and coordination. It's up to the eagle candidate to coordinate and run his project. I think it's more of a statement that unit leaders are expected to coach the youth about safety issues and be prepared to yell STOP if needed to protect the youth. ... What I need to learn is how to coach and yell STOP if it's not being coordinated in detail with the troop. IMHO, it's up to the unit leaders to be interested in the project and ask questions. I guess I'm okay with that. Just need to see how things really work out.

Beavah: Very well said. "So the way I'm tellin' people to think about it is that they should go through the same planning process they do with regular troop outings. I think that's accurate and it's a good way of explaining it. The old system was far far beyond what we'd do for any troop event, summer camp, high adventure, fundraising or court of honor. The new eagle workbook "proposal" is the same level of detail we do for our standard outings, even the week long summer camp. I also like statement from the view of eliminating a double standard that events administered by adults have very little documentation and those by scouts need a research paper written.

eisely: Great job! Sounds just like what our district does. Our guy doesn't do just Mondays, but he does protect his calendar, his life and his marriage. I should mention I've heard a few of those conversations when they are face to face. His first question is also ... when do you turn 18?(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Mad Max: Just to be clear, are you saying your scouts will be required to do the final plan? You wrote "cover to cover" and "for lack of a final plan" and "I got no pushback at all". But you also wrote "is to do it just like the (BSA) book presents it". So, I'm confused. I'm just not sure what you would get pushback for if your doing it just like the book presents it. I know TwoCubDad said his unit won't sign Eagle Proposals or Fundraising Plans without a detailed budget. Essentially establishing unit expectations that are beyond the BSA book. Are you saying your unit won't accept proposals or projects without a final plan? When would the road block be put up? Proposal sign-off? Fundraiser sign-off? Project report sign-off? Mind you, I'm not arguing against the need for a final plan. Any significant work needs planning. And I'm betting I won't see an eagle workbook without most or all of the final plan filled out. I'm just interested in how many units or districts are planning to implement their own expectations. ... RememberSchiff: Nice analysis. I yearn for what you describe (i.e. eagle scout reflecting scout spirit and not an uber-leader). But that gets back to scouting emphasizing citizenship instead of leadership. Yet another different discussion. It's one reason I like the new workbook and process. Gets back to the scout doing a good deed and less of being a master bureaucrat.

Eagle92 wrote: "... but I beleive it is council wide. " In our council, every district can be very different. I've been amazed just how different. Our district runs the EBORs at roundtable but a neighboring district has troops schedule the EBORs and only supply a district advancement rep to sit on the EBOR. Others districts schedule them ad-hoc. Even year to year it changes greatly as people change. Before it took a committee approval to approve an project proposal and took months. Now, it's one really knowledgable scouter and he can usually meet with you the same week. I don't think there's a district standard "process" ... even within one council.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Eagle92 wrote: "They meet once a month to do EBORs and approve projects." IMHO ... once a month approval is not showing much support for the scout. Though there may not be a rule against it, IMHO that's just not cool. EBORs once a month ... fine. It should NOT affect eagle rank. BUT approving projects once a month adds headaches and delays for the scout. What if they want changes or won't sign, then it's two months to get a signature. Project approval should not take more than a week ... excluding scout effort and scout time to make corrections. For my son's project, the project was reviewed two days after he called the DAC and approved at that meeting. (I was expecting it to be bounced to make improvements, but it got signed.)

Basement ... It's all a matter of #1 project needs and #2 proportion. IMHO, food during the event is a "supply" (volunteer incentive or health and safety protection) to get the job done. Food after the event is a thank you. The eagle project workbook specifically calls out both food as a supply and calls out saying thank you in the project report. IMHO, volunteer labor is also a donation just like money, wood, shovels, etc. Proportion... if the project is to restore a stream filled by sediment or to remove a forest of buckthorn, you might need a large crew for multiple days. You might spend hundreds and hundreds or more and 90% of your budget on food for the crew. If volunteer construction ... a $1000 project is probably okay spending $20 to $100 feeding the crew and also probably okay spending $10 to $20 on tokens to say thank you to the volunteers and/or donors. Maybe more. A $100,000 volunteer construction is probably okay spending hundreds, a thousand or more on food and spending $300 to $1000 saying thank you. A million dollar specific donation probably includes a catered thank you event. Heck, many projects pay for bronze plaques naming the donors bolted to large rocks. That's out of donation money. It's all a matter of the project needs and proportionality. ... The problem I see is "expecting" parents to pay. Yes, I donated pizzas to my son's eagle project. Six Little Ceasar $5 pizzas. Walmart generic two liter $0.99 sodas. Paper towels and Red Solo cups (... go Toby Keith ...) But it was in his plan, recorded as a donation and I received a thank you letter (tax deduction record) from the beneficiary. But you can't REQUIRE a charitable contribution. That's an oxymoron. And the scout should plan and budget the food. It's part of the project. ... twocubdad wrote: "Another new item in the new workbook is an Eagle Project Fundraising Application which requires approval of the unit, beneficiary and council. This unit will not approve a fundraising app without a detailed budget." I know this is a discussion that's already happened and will keep happening for years to come. But here it is. The eagle workbook proposal includes a "Preliminary Cost Estimate". The fundraising app includes a description of how much and how it will be used. Most importantly the workbook includes page 21 that teaches the scout and his parents what is required. Now most parents and scouts won't realize your requiring more or will decide it's not worth picking a fight. But, refusing to approve a fundraising app without a detailed budget is adding requirements. I understand the need and depending on the budget might also work to see the details, but it's still adding requirements. ... And yes... adult leaders help scouts fight the battles with other adult leaders. That's why we are there. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

You encountered yet another rule that's really just a personal preference / opinion. Let the scout decide. It's his project. Seems 100% appropriate as it's part of getting the job done. ... and there's no rule against it. QUICK CORRECTION - The wrong thing is to expect the parents to pay. A scout pays his own way. So the real scout decision is to feed or not to feed. If the project plan includes providing food for volunteers, funding it is part of the project. ... Of course, it could be funded thru a donation to the project ... by the parents ... or by the scoutmaster ... or by the local Subway or Pizza Hut ... but it's part of the project and essentially a donation to the project.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

(duplicate)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Again, JMHawkins wrote a reply much better than I can say it. But I spent the time writing ... so here's my comment. ... jblake47 wrote: "I find it difficult to accept the vs. in the title Citizenship and Leadership are one and the same." I can understand but I agree with the topic in that I'd rather see scouting focused on citizenship and stop hearing people say scouting teaches leadership. IMHO, saying scouting teaches leadership is destructive for the same reasons listed by JMHawkins. Leadership should be at the same level as teaching skills, teaching responsibility, teaching being an active member of a group and teaching scouts to get the job done. All aspects of citizenship. ... Often, we won't be the most skilled in the current topic. Most of the time, we won't be the documented crowned leader. But 100% of the time we can lead by our example and be an active member of a group trying to accomplish a goal. ... JMHawkins: At times I hope national reads some of these posts and reflects on the topics and makes changes. This is one.

JMHawkins: Nicely written and agree. I'd love to see scouting emphasize citizenship at a higher level then leadership. And your points are very good. Great statement ... "Citizenship includes leadership, when leadership is needed and you're the right person to provide it. It also includes being responsible for your job when being responsible for your job is what's needed." ... "Passively following whoever is declared boss isn't the same thing at all. It's the difference between citizenship and serfdom." ... I've seen several troops that solely focus on leadership development beyond common sense and diminishing the average troop member. ... Related... There was something that I really liked when I saw it. The new eagle workbook is called the "Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook". They dropped the word leadership from the title. I liked that as it emphasizes service (part of citizenship) and responsibility. Leadership is still key, but it puts a little more focus back on service and doing a good deed.

Twocubdad ... You hit it on the head. I've had many of the same thoughts but never put them down. ... EVERYONE - Read TwoCubDad's Jan 17th post. What a great statement! I wish BSA would realign with the approach TwoCubDad wrote. - Drop the Cub Scout "graduation" idea. It's just an excuse to leave. - Make Cub Scouts / Boy Scouts a continuous progression. - Drop the need to fill out a new form to join a boy scout troop. It's just the next step. - Drop the Arrow Of Light being the Cub Scout highest award, instead it's just the award at the end of the Webelos year. Like changing from Cub Scouts earning their current rank to the Boy Scouts earning their next rank. ... I was really just wondering if BSA had an initiative. Now, I wish TwoCubDad's post was that initiative.

Fehler wrote:: "You have too much information, its starting to no longer be useful. District meetings and special trainings 6 months out? Why do non-PLC scouts need to know when PLC meetings are? Simplify a printed "Parent's Information" calendar, and then tell the SM/ASMs/MCs to look it up on-line and print their own if they need it." We are just trying to show a similar amount of info to what we showed when we authored it in Microsoft Word. - PLCs are included because roles change. Elections are every six months. We want the scouts to get used to the same calendar because they will be on that PLC more than once. Also, the "program patrol" needs to know when they need to plan activities and when the info is needed. It's also useful because scouts sometimes drop paperwork or equipment off during the committee half of the PLC meeting. - Round tables are listed because that's when the youth OA rep needs attend his OA meetings. Also, it's when EBORs are done and other special training / activities occur. We just want everyone working off one calendar that has the necessary info. We used to be able to do it very easily in the past. Not so much now. I realize we could shrink founds, print four pages one one page, etc. But at some point it just looks sloppy and not something you want to represent the quality of your pack or troop. Thus the reason I'm hoping to find a solution to creating an automated printable calendar. Our web vendor doesn't support it. Google's printed calendar is poor.

Okay. Thanks. Sounds like there is no "rumor" or other initiative. Just something in our own council or district. Hmmmm.... I know there was an inquiry last year or the year before on how to improve scouting locally. I know one idea was to focus on troops supporting their CO's pack. Maybe it is just the local full-circle result of that suggestion.

I understand the debate. I'm just wondering if someone has heard of something coming out of national within the last year emphasizing the alignment between same COR units.

For our troop, we have two or three troop meetings a month, a camp out (two to seven days), an activity, district meetings, special training and other extra stuff. It's usually six entries minimum a month. Some months have ten entries. Each Google calendar entry takes five lines plus one blank line (six total). Twelve months * 8 entries average * six = 576 lines. Add more for multi-day events. Assuming 60 lines per page, that's ten pages. For our pack, it might be workable as we only have two or three pack events per month. BUT ... for committee meetings... , it's useful to have a list of when everyone is meeting to plan out activities and special events. That is easily ten per month. Try to bring a useful calendar to review at committee meetings. ... Fehler wrote:: "I have a Pack, not a Troop, so the number of multi-day events is one a year. I have January-May Pack events on two pages (not including den meetings, they do their own scheduling)." That's five months. Probably two events per month. Twelve events requiring two pages. At least that can be one sheet of paper both sides. ... I'm just sort of stuck with no options for a reasonable printed calendar that is not custom typed every time.

I should mention that my city has six troops and seven packs. One troop has never successfully recruited a cub from the aligned pack. Two troops don't have a pack as the ones with their COR closed down. Our pack doesn't "officially" have a troop as we're chartered by an elementary school PTO and it's a relatively new elementary school. We all want each other to succeed, but it doesn't always feel that way. Recruitment time can be like a feeding frenzy.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Has anyone heard of a national or other initiative to get units from the same COR to align together? I heard something at a district meeting about it. But I was not sure if it was just the idea of an individual, district, council or national? The idea being that a packs, troops and crews chartered by the same COR should work together. It read to me like the old "feeder pack" concept being resurrected. Just curious if anyone can point to any news article or other publication.

Custom Access DB .... But then I'm back to either #1 - Maintaining data in two places (custom DB and SOAR) ... and confusion as we email the "printable" version between people to get it updated and printed as necessary. We so much wanted to move away from that as we have with emailing Excel files of email addresses. #2 - Deleting the SOAR calendar data and not having available for use. I'm sort of in a stuck position with SOAR and the calendar stuff. Not sure what to do. I think I'll try the custom programming Google scripts suggested earlier. But the whole frustration is we adopted SOAR to get away from that.(This message has been edited by fred8033)