fred8033

Ya know...

I can understand the world crest being required. I can also understand that as scouts we should just wear it. Heck, why not wear it?

BUT ... if the key rule document available to us says "may", then it's not really required. It's up to BSA to get the documents right. I believe that inconsistent documents goes in favor of the impacted person. So I'd give the scout the benefit of the doubt and congratulate him (not the parent) on reading the rules.

Then, I'd buy him a patch and offer to help him sew it on his shirt.

Here's another good one.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2012/03/13/youth-in-the-office-are-your-parents-meddling-in-your-career/

Are your parents meddling in your career?

Couldn't resist posting this article here. Easter is canceled in Colorado.

Aggressive parents force egg hunt cancellation

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j3CX4Jgq3-Gj_qyZ02f4E5BDtGnA?docId=dcb20046c6734c4a9aa9dfe03ceffd86

The pack still has to be organized. When I was a den leader, we emailed the list of advancements to the person who purchased advancements. Now, we put it in scouttrack.com. SO your pack lets the advancement chair know what to put in PackMaster. then, that person prints a report from PackMaster. I don't see that much of a difference.

The reason I was okay with the paper chart as a den leader is that cub advancements are not critical to the future advancement path. Councils don't track belt loops or any of the lower cub advancements such as world conservation, etc. They only track rank advancements. Boy SCouts is very different in that Boy Scout advancement is cumulative. Seven years later you often need to show a clean path of advancement for the next advancement.

Call your state DNR, fishing group or talk to fishing organizations. I know our pack (best at den level) has had a group come in and teach fishing to the scouts. All for free. It's part of their promotion of fishing and fishing licenses, etc.

(sorry... been traveling...)

Good discussion. One minor point. Very minor.

And it's probably resolved by coordination between a SM and his troop's committee memebers. Perhaps, some troops coordinate such that they use the SM signature as proof that requirements are all complete. But, that's not an automatic.

The key point is that a checked off scoutmaster conference is not a guarantee that all the requirements are done. A good SM will discuss previous rank requirements as part of having a conversation with the scout. But, it's the explicit responsibility of the BOR to check requirements, not the SMC. Plus, the SMC is not a pass/fail or even a "completed" thing. It's just a "did you sit with the SM and conference?" If yes, then SMC is done.

Purpose of scoutmaster conference

- Review the Scout's growth in his understanding of Scouting's ideals

- Review how the Scout applies these ideals in his daily life and in the troop

- Review the requirements of the Scout's next rank so that he can be properly encouraged

Purpose of board of review

- confirm the scout has done what the scout was supposed to do

- evaluate scout's acceptance of the scouting ideals

- evaulate troop's effectiveness in presenting the scouting program

- encourage further advancement

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Of course BSA published training is behind (i.e. inconsistent) with the current rules.

The newly issued GTA says in section "4.2.3.5 Unit Leader (Scoutmaster) Conference" ... "While it makes sense to hold one after other requirements for a rank are met, it is not required that it be the last step before the board of review."

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Just saying confirming requirements are done is the BOR responsibility. Don't automatically trust a completed SMC to indicate all requirements are done.

The original poster asked if we have meetings every month. I'm not sure 100% what is meant, but if you use the traditional concept of meetings ... no. We use the traditional meeting structure in Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Apr & May.

BUT ... we have at least one "pack" event every month. Feb is our B&G. Similar to a pack meeting but much bigger. March is pinewood derby (another big event).

The key though is that every month we have something at the "pack level" available. I think we target two things a month at the pack level. Often a combination of meetings, service, camp or some type of special event.

Looking over the last year... We had six service events. Seven traditional meetings. Two or three "parties" (halloween, B&G, etc). Two pack family camps. Two council run camps. Several pack level "go see it" type of events.

Not everyone will do everything. Leaders don't have to be at everything. But an active calendar drives an successful pack.

Okay. Not to speak heresy as Im often pushing the technology envelope BUT as a den leader I really like the simple $1.99 2x3 paper advancement charts sold by the scout stores. Cub scout advancement is very different than boy scout advancement. Pack Master isnt really needed. Tracking all the ugly little details wasnt really needed.

And it was nice to just have it up and visible during den meetings. It helped the parents see where their sons were with advancement. Then, I just emailed our advancement chair what was needed for the next pack meeting.

Boy Scouts is a very different situation though.

Been there. Really cool experience. Nothing like tent sleeping where at 2am it's 90 degrees with a 85 degree dew poitn.

Interesting discussion. Only a few comments...

#1 SMC - It's not the scoutmaster's job at the SMC to make sure every requirement is done. Scoutmaster can do that if he wants, but it's still the BOR's job. Just saying it because as a BOR I would not use a completed SMC as an indication the requirements are complete.

#2 BOR has several key focuses. One is that the BOR is the checkpoint to verify that requirements are completed. IMHO, that means also to verify that paperwork is clean and ready to go. But IMHO I view that as a cooperative co-responsibility of the scout and the troop leaders and not an obstacle for the scout to overcome. Help the scout recreate his records and help the scout find evidence that he completed the requirements. Support the scout.

#3 In our troop, we've had few handbooks lost over the years ... very few. I've only known one scoutbook that had to be completely re-created and that was because it was destroyed at school through vandalism. A good velcro cover is important.

"2 signatures won't stop everything, but its still a good procedure."

Agreed. For our unit though, it's a moot procedure as multiple leaders see images of the checks thru emailing the PDF bank statements and those statements have images of each check. IMHO, the solution is transparancy.

IMHO, two signatures on every check is never really that great of protection.

In our units, the protections are #1 someone other than the treasurer gets the bank statements; #2 we email a PDF of the bank statements to four or more different families and #3 the PDF bank statements include an image over every check written.

PDF bank statements with check images is a service by our bank. We love it. Strongly recommend it.

I hope everyone reads it. but even if they don't, at least there is transparancy if someone starts questionioning what's going on.

No chit.

Have adults guide and coach the youth leaders and the youth. For electronics, teach youth leaders common techniques for dealing with electronics such as waiting until it's put away to continue or asking the person to step away or other. It's our job as leaders to guide the youth and to teach youth how to leader other youth.

I've never cared for the "If I see it, you lose it" approach. I wouldn't respect a boss who did it to me and I suspect scouts roll their eyes at such threats.

A phone is a tool just like an ax, knife, stove, tent or rain coat. We warn parents that scouts lose and break stuff. Happens all the time. It's their risk, not ours.

As a side note, we often say equipment is built for commercial use (flimsy), heavy duty, industrial or scout use. Things just don't take a worse beating.

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

basementdweller wrote: "wingnut you have never been a victim of roundtable or camp adult snobbery."

LOL. Been there ... way too many times.

Eagle1973 wrote: "This Scout may have to come back and "finish" his SM Conference."

That just creeps me out. Taking an appropriate BOR response to an incomplete advancement requirement and applying it at a SMC to hold up the scout. SMCs happen. No pass fail. Once it happened, the scout has had his SMC and the SM is to help the scout get his BOR. There's no re-convene two weeks later after you've refreshed your skills.

But it's your troop and you can pretty much do as you want.

The only way I've seen scouts held up at SMC is when the SM reserves the "scout spirit" requirement for the SMC. But that's a whole different discussion. And even then, you sign off on the SMC because the scout had his SMC.

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Eagledad wrote: "I do feel that if scouts are intimidated by the SM conference or BOR, then that is not the right style."

Great insight. Fully agree.

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Buffalo Skipper wrote: "The SMC is not a retest of skills (as stated by many here).

The SMC is not a prep for the Board of Review.

The SMC is not a lecture by the SM."

So correct.

Beavah wrote: "Yah, I've never understood this claim. Are yeh really saying that by the time a boy comes up for rank advancement, the Scoutmaster doesn't know the scout?"

I think you know better. It's one thing to know the scout, but another to have had an extended private conversation about scouting experiences and goals. I'm a CC and I focus on the adult side of the troop; redirecting the scouts to the SPL or SM. But I still know all the scouts, their personalities, likes, dislikes, etc. But I've had few private conversations. And even fewer have I had a heart-to-heart conversation about their life and scouting experience.

I'm sure it's the same for our SM. SMC is not pass / fail. It's just a directed conversation.

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Rank advancement worksheets ... Falls right in-line with the ninth method of scouting.

1. Patrols

2. Ideals

3. Outdoor programs

4. Advancement

5. Adult interaction

6. Personal growth

7. Leadership development

8. Uniform

9. Inspirational paperwork

Pack - 80 - Just lost 10 Webelos 2 at the B&G

Troop - 45 - Just received 15 Webelos. Had two bad recruitment years.

I'll confess.

Over the last ten years, I've handed them over periodically. Not that often. To recharter, you already have to visit with the CO executive. As such, we've already had a recent conversation. Probably the same conversation that happens each year.

Starts with the church secretary ... "Who are you?" ... "Why do you need a signature?" Followed by a "Huh?"

The charter paper comes a few months later. We've already had the conversation. Time in front of the congregation is pretty limited.

The other CO is a PTO and we don't really want to raise visibility too much as it could easily push someone's button causing a much bigger headache.

...

Probably the one thing that should change is see if the CO wants to have a frame somewhere to display the charter. We could put the new one in each year.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah wrote: - "I think what evilleramsfan and his fellow scouters are tryin' to say is that the boy in question really hasn't done this, at least in terms of learning and meeting BSA advancement expectations.

Fair enough. I read evilleramsfan posts very differently. I saw where evilleramsfan wrote:" "This boy was one of the ones who got a bunch of items signed off because he went to two different summer camps. As a result, most of his First class was signed off and just needed time to happen. He did not earn First Class, but received it anyway."

But it really didn't connect with me in where he did not earn First Class. I was reading that the scout had reasonable knowledge on the topics the SM questioned him on and the scout was very involved. I interpretted that others in the troop were grumbling at how fast the scout advanced. Almost like complaining that such a young scout had an unfair advantage by getting two weeks of summer camp and was able to shoot past his similar aged scouts.

...

evilleramsfan - This might be moot now. But when you wrote "He did not earn First Class", what did you mean? Did he not pass a swimmers test (or equivalent with doctor's permission etc and BSA waver)? Did he not identify 10 different plants? Did he not help plan a patrol menu? Did he not do the map and compass requirement? How did the scout fail to meet the requirements?

Eagle732 wrote: "I just try to balance the overall numbers of the patrols. I ask the new guys which patrol they want to be in and try to work it out so everyone is as happy as possible. I think it's important to let them have some say in where they go."

Cool. Very similar to our troop. We do initially put scouts in new scout patrols. They elect a patrol leader at the 1st meeting. Troop Guide helps them with the 1st meeting, 1st PLC, 1st camp out, etc. The Troop Guide knows to slowly wean the new scouts of needing his advice.

But if they want, they can join another patrol. Or switch to another patrol at any time. Usually, functioning patrols want to stay together. That's 100% fine ... in my book. Your experience may vary.

RememberSchiff wrote: "Give the units with an absentee COR the right to select another representative to attend and vote at district and council meetings. "

Great answer. When the local councils merged, the COs were given the vote. They had no clue. It was a laugh at the district round table with scouters rolling their eyes.

............

I like the current model of BSA providing the concepts, rules and materials for a program to be owned and run by the CO.

BUT changes are needed to address key weaknesses. I'm not sure what solution is, but the problems are recurrant and based on absentee or barely involved COs.

In my experience, the vast majority of COs are absentee or just barely involved. I really doubt many church elders or pastors regularly monitor, guide or correct their owned units.

Sooo....

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#1 Legal or practical ownership? It's a grey situation at best. Who's responsible? Who's liable? Is CO unit ownership just a BSA liability shield? If so, it seems like a weak one.

BSA has 99% of the contact by "owning" the camps, the training, and the program materials; and, registering the leaders. BSA (thru the councils and districts) runs all the activities (district derbies, university of scouting, council level youth training, etc.)

I bet most COs (pastors, church elders) wouldn't know the name or recognize the cubmaster or scoutmaster when he(she) walks in the door. Most COs just sign the charter every year. That's about it. ... AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT ... BUT ... the absentee CO is to approve the unit leader character and knowledge? And to monitor and "own" the unit? If BSA contracts with the CO and BSA knows the COs are usually not doing much on their side, it seems like BSA has a big liability.

The problem is that an absentee CO is the normal condition. IMHO (not a legal scholar) when it's accepted knowledge that the majority of COs are not that involved (i.e. not screening volunteers, training or monitoring quality), then it seems BSA doesn't have that strong legal coverage when problems happen.

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#2 Fixing problem units? With time, leaders change. Especially in Cub Scout packs. When units get off course, get poor leadership or no leadership, who fixes it? District execs can coach, but they have no power. COs are mostly absent and have no concept of what the problems are. The result is that to fix broken units, the units often need to first crash and burn. Or worse ... the units keep going as they are for years not delivering the scouting promise and damaging everyone's perception of what scouting is about.

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#3 Conflicting youth program concepts? ... Except LDS ... Scouting groups are often viewed as an "outside group" that the church is providing a service too by letting them use church space. It's common that "internal" church youth groups don't even get involved with their church's scouting unit. And vice versa. BUT ... the church youth groups are tightly coupled to the church (monitored, supported, overseen, fixed, guided, ...). The scouting unit is the "outside" group.

shortridge wrote: "By emphasizing advancement and quality control and making that your priority, you're implicitly telling Scouts that they need to focus on checking the boxes and reading the rules. That's a skewed focus.

"The emphasis should be on program and outdoor adventure, not advancement policies and procedures. Advancement will happen naturally in a troop that has a good outdoor program, almost accidentally. There's no need to worry about retention of skills, because the Scouts are using them every month.

"It is harder to do, especially in a troop with lots of aggressive parents. But it is the way Scouting was intended to be done."

100% agree. Great response. In another thread, it was asserted that some troops are "kid focused" and others are "program focused". I've yet to reach a position on that. Perhaps because it wasn't a strong deliniation in my mind. BUT, this one is.

Program focused versus advancement focused? Scouting is program based. It's about doing. Getting outdoors. Learning. Exploring. Building friendships. The scout in question apparently has done this, has been a good member of the troop and has met BSA advancement expectations. Why even talk about testing the lower limits? Why even talk about advancement quality control? To me that's just misfocused and needs an attitude adjustment.

IMHO, the real question is how to celebrate this scout's achievement before he moves out of town.

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If you have any quality control question, perhaps the question is how do you make sure it's the scout's scouting experience and not the parents. It's hard to save a scout from his own parents and especially a scout with such a disability. In our troop, we've got two with significant autism, one with muscular dystrophy and several others with more mild conditions. Often, the parents are there just to help out.

But we've also had pushy parents. Usually after listening to the parent talk / vent, the answer is a friendly smile and a "have your son come talk to me." Often we don't even discuss advancement with the parents. Explain yes. Discuss no.

...

"too fast too soon" is as often an adult leader issue as much as a scout issue.

For the last eight years, we've been pretty consistent

Weekend - tent camping - 8 or 9 (Mar - Nov)

Weekend - cave camping - 1 (Dec - Feb)

Weekend - cabin camping - 2 (Dec - Feb)

Weekend - outdoor winter camping - 1 or 2 (Dec - Feb)

Week long summer camp - Tents - 1

Extended adventure - Tents - High - 1 or 2 (Jun - Aug)

Extended adventure - Tents - Moderate - 1 or 2 (Jun - Aug)

If you did every overnight activity with the troop, you'd have around 35 to 38 nights. No one does it all, but a good percent of the troop has 30+ nights yearly.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah ... Mellow out. All the kids know him. He's an active parent in the troop and effectively a committee member. He has helped our events and we've helped his sheriff's department events (forming snow blocks, etc).

In the last eight years, we've only had one scout who we've asked to be visit with the troop committee because of behavior. We had talked with the parents before and they understood why and we worked out how to handle the situation. Visiting the troop committee was almost a formality to impress the seriousness of what was happening.

raisinemright wrote: "I had a little incident with a municipal youth group I used to help lead. We caught a kid with some pot, disposed of it and set up a meeting with his parents with the intention of letting them handle the punishment, besides being kicked out of the club. The other leader was a cop but the kid didn't know it. He showed up to the meeting in uniform. Seeing the kid's look of utter fear, I had a hard time keeping s straight face."

That's an absolutely great story.

We have an active parent who's a deputy sheriff. He helps our troop and our troop helps some of his police community activities. You can sure as bet we'll be doing that too if anything significant ever happened. He doesn't need to say or do anything. Maybe a friendly word of advice. But having him there in full uniform would say plenty.