fred8033

"I'm feeling Fred's pain. We're just getting one or two boys because our CO's pack is feeding another troop. " ... I think that's very common. It's tough being a new cub leader. They feel overwhelmved and develop an attitude that the troop doesn't support them enough. Only later to find out the troop they go into doesn't support their aligned pack either. "But none of our boys are members of the CO, so maybe they are feeling a little pain too." - very common.

"What matters is where the most popular kid in the den is going or where the CM wants the kids to go. " - So so true. .... Never seeing SM of associated troop until recruitment ... seen that too. That's one reason why I think pack and troop committees should work together. One committee to oversee a scouting program for the charter org. Just an opinion on this one.

Here's a great analogy. ... WHAT IF ... Boy scout recruitment is mimic'ed in cub recruitment. Tiger cubs get fliers from three or four packs. Visit multiple packs and choose the one that best fits them and their family. Somehow it's a good idea for Boy Scouts. Why not Cub Scouts? ... REALITY ... A very quick way to get cub leaders upset is for another pack to flier their associated elementary school. It's assumed that students an elementary school will go into a certain pack. They are of course welcome into any pack and are welcome to switch at any time. ... BUT ... it is assumed they go into that pack. Why do people get upset? Because it creates confusion AND leaders feel cheated after investing so much time in the relationship. My main pack (CC for that one pack, COR for two packs) has worked hard with the school. Volunteering in many ways. Great relationship with the principal. We have 30% to 35% of the boys in the school in the pack. In two grades, we have 50% of the boys. We have invested in the relationship. We are grateful that it's assumed kids at the school will join our pack. If other packs randomly started flyering our school, it would frustrate us .. big time. It would create confusion and create a feeling that it's not fair to just jump in after all the time has been invested. Maybe the youth would have a better experience with the other unit. Maybe not. But I doubt most parents would be able to predict it in advance. And there's something to be said for building and respecting relationships. .... If we don't do it at the cub level, why the boy scout level? ... REALITY ... More packs I know have problems then troops. Getting into the right pack is important.

"Instead, the usual thing is to ignore packs until its time for a crossover ceremony." That's sort of what set me off this morning. The other troop offered a den chief to the the Webelos den at the end of the webelos 1st year. Effectively six months left. I know the scout family and he doesn't need the leadership for rank. It's a recruitment effort. The cubmaster suggested the den chief help the bear den that's about to become Webelos. If the scout wants to do it, we didn't want to say no. We just did not feel it's right to step in nearing the end of the Webelos experience. Plus the current Webelos den already has a den chief. If the other troop was at all involved with the pack, they would have known that. Though we hope he helps den, I doubt it. We'll have to see. So guess what wil be discussed at our next troop PLC / committee meeting? Den chiefs. We've had them in the past when scouts are interested and act. Now we need to proactively encouarge scouts to be den chiefs to build that connection too.

"... SPL came up to the boys UNPROMPTED, introduced himself ... " - Love when that happens. I've seen many SPLs over the last nine years as they change on average every nine months, minimum six months, sometimes 12, 18, 24 or more months. Every SPL is different. Some very impressive. Some not so. It's not a long-term attribute of the troop. ... If a troop is dysfunctional or not healthy, sure go ahead and switch. If ya don't get along with the leaders, go ahead and switch. Fine. But why not change earlier? In a continual scouting experience, change when ya realize you don't like the situation. Why wait for the magical Webelos transition? It's a transition that should be eliminated. What's funny is that we have cub members who transferred into our pack from the same pack number as the troop number I have difficulty with. (different charter org as the troop was asked to find a new home five to ten years ago). Thus never recruiting from their current charter org pack. If cubs transfer when they don't like the situation, why not same with others. Transfer when the situation is not a good fit. BUT ... it should be one continuous scouting experience. Then leaders (both troop and webelos leader) can focus on a good program. Not on marketing and a big decision. I suspect it would work very well for most. In our city, I'd say all but one of the troops are very good. And the one that has trouble lost their original charter and doesn't get anyone from their current charter. Guess why. IMHO, the current model creates a "big choice" that's gets blown way out of proportion, wastes alot of time and does more damage than good.

Troop shopping.... Most Webelos dens I've seen stay together unless there's an inside issue the den. IMHO, most troop shopping serves one person and the others just follow. So I just don't buy the matching a scout to a troop. Plus, I really don't think people know what to look for other than to avoid dysfunctional troops. Plus, I'd almost ask why wait for webelos to boy scouts transition. Find a good match as soon as you can. If your aligned unit isn't a good match, switch when you know. I'd almost rather see Webelos be a skills training time for Boy Scouts. Closer aligned to boy scouts. Heck, let the boy scouts help in the training. From my experience, Webelos have more in common with their future Boy Scouts then they have in common with tiger/wolf/bear scouts.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Sorry for rehashing a past discussion. I'm just venting right now because of something that happened this morning. BSA needs to redesign Webelos transition. It should be fun and enjoyable for all. But, I just dread it. This year we got 15 (12 active so far) new scouts from two different packs. Next year looks like another strong year. *** But *** I've lost a lot of respect for scouters because of recruitment and what happens. Lack of support for their own packs. Heavy handed recruitment. Slamming other units. Plus the stress involved is just frustrating. At one point, I fully agreed with BSAs approach of shopping for the right troop. Promotes better troops right? Well, I just dont think it works that way. I dont think parents know what to look for. Instead, they join based on one or two experiences and then also on the smoozing factor. I wish BSA would create a stronger alignment between packs and troops. A continuous scouting experience. Eliminate shopping for troops. Of course if a scout and his family are having a bad experience, let them switch. But I think the program would be stronger if it emphasized a continual scouting experience. At least then, youth and their parents know something about the charter org thru their years of experience in the pack. They should know the facility, the time and probably many of the leaders. Heck, why have such a major transition point that throws everything up into the air? Its already close to the needed result. Webelos arent Cub Scouts and they arent BoyScouts. Theyre Webelos scouts. Theres also something to be said for loyalty. Ideally speaking, the charter org created a youth program (scouting units) to do something nice for youth and the community. So if you are in their pack, why wouldnt you show your gratitude and support by joining their troop. If you plan to join another charter orgs troop, why not switch to that charter orgs pack. .... Our city has eight packs and seven troops. BUT ... two troops don't have associated packs because their packs have failed in the last two years. Another huge troop has a pack that's about to fail. Our troop has worked hard building a relationship with our pack and supporting our pack. But another local troop that hasn't recruited a single scout ever from their aligned pack at their own charter org. Instead, they recruit heavily from our associated pack and a few others. They don't support our pack in activities, facilities or equipment. But they call the pack under our charter org one of their feeder packs. This year we got five from our aligned pack. Next year, I'm not sure. It will be interesting though. And one of the pack leaders is going to inject things to support us as the aligned unit. The trouble is that of all the great local troops I would not recommend their troop. There have been too many ugly situations. Issues happen in every troop, but incidents seem to happen three fold in their troop. I guess I would not mind their recruiting from other packs as much if they tried to recruit from their own aligned pack. But they dont. They have never recruited a single scout from the pack thats under their same roof same charter org. .... Another troop recruits heavy handed. During visits, parents are told "We only take ten scouts every year. If you want to join, you should fill out an application now to reserve a spot." Their associated pack failed a few years ago. The pack members were welcomed into another pack under different charter org (church) that had been working hard to grow their new troop. It was to be their 1st year of a large cross over. Well the other troop leader had strong ties to youth in the failed pack. So they then recruited heavily from the very welcoming charter org pack. So by welcoming those cubs that no longer had a pack and thus doing a good deed, they lost out and helped defeat their own objectives. They would have been smarter to not accept an en-masse transfer of cubs. .... My favorite is another troop that never really talked with other leaders. This year they smoozed (word???) a few leaders that we assumed would be joining us. Well, it's okay as we got others. But we were just looking forward to those leaders and their sons joining us as we enjoy their company. It was just creepy in how they went from zero interaction to a very hign smoozing level. .... This ramble started because this morning something happened that appeared nice. But when you reflect on why, its 100% Webelos recruitment related. AND it requires us to gear up to yet a higher level to succeed with our recruitment. Its a Webelos recruitment nuclear arms race. And it gets tiring, embarrassing and very unscoutlike. .... I hope BSA recognizes and fixes the situation some time.

... sigh ... how do I get the last 15 minutes back ????

I think a key feature of districts is that it creates a smaller area that volunteer labor can support for advancement, camping, fundraising, training, etc ... and that, more importantly, reduces the work load on paid staff at the council level. The existance of districts creates a cheaper business model.

Fork ... Many people bring their lunches with them. Saves alot of money. I'd imagine a fair number of forks are found in pursues and brief cases all the time. I bet many jurors bring left overs with them to eat during the day. I understand knives being banned from courts, etc. Makes sense. But it's still just sad.

I'm sad. I have vivid memories of my grandfather showing me his pocket knife collection. Banks used to give them out for opening accounts. If you traveled, a good keepsake was a pocket knife. He had dozens. Mt Rushmore. DC. Texas. Duluth. Now, a new local court security screening program is boasting of all the weapons it collected in the first week. They were displayed on a table. Looked to be about 50 or 60 "weapons". Box cutters. Scissors. Nail clippers. Tweezers. Forks. And dozens of pocket knives. Most were very small key-chain size. Not a single one with a blade wider than the width of my hand. I already live in fear of my kids being expelled for leaving a pocket knife in their jacket or backpack. Now, it's a called weapon for the everyday person. Probably a bit to do with our lifestyles now. More desk jobs. More internet. Less getting outside and getting your hands dirty.

Cub camping??? Tents??? ... I'm just glad when they camp. My recommendation is bring what you have. Don't go buying a new tent for cub camping. Boy scouts would be a different answer.

Spiral bound are somewhat easier to read, but I've found the pages tear out easier with rough use. The key durability issue is getting the velcro closing book cover from the scout store. Good product and extremely useful. Without it, any scout book gets beat up pretty quick. Personally, I like the non-ring bound book because it is slightly smaller, flatter and easier to carry around.

Have a sympathetic heart. They are cub leaders and you want to motivate them to do the best possible job for the scouts. Plus they are probably relatively new to scouting. Probably never seen the legalistic beurocracy of a eagle project. Probably don't know squat about scoutnet, rechartering, journey to excellence or one of donzens and dozens scout specific concepts. They're tiger leaders and wolf leaders and .... If you want to be legalistic, apply it to the Scoutmaster award of merit and similar awards. To complain about tiger den leader knots and den leader knots and such is a bit much.

"Minimum sales" - I've never cared for approaching scouting issues from the negative side. Reward instead of penalize. Celebrate achievements instead of punishing disappointments. Instead of "minimum sales", find a reward such as dues waved after a level. Or ... Our pack has rewards. No scout accounts, but every scout who sells gets a patch. Top ten or more sellers get prizes (clearance stuff ... tents, sleeping bags, flash lights, binoculars, etc.). Also, the top sellers get to put ready whip pies in the face of the leader. Sales doubled when we annouced prizes. Doubled again when we announced the pies. Our troop simply has scout accounts. We're trying to route as much of the profit to the scout as possible. Currently 80%. Goal is 100%. No waiving dues. No prizes. No pies. Patch yes. But if you sell more, you can cover your dues with the sales just like you can cover camp outs with scout account. Just scouts paying their way. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

The only good solution I've seen is transparency. Identify one person as the treasurer, but make sure multiple people are seeing the bank statements. For our troop, we have five people with online access to review the account. Each person has their own sign-on and can see the data.

January camp out is cabin camping. Indoor eating. Outdoor activities.

Very well written policy. Interesting though as during our BALOO training we were taught that we should plan a pack fall, winter and spring camp out. Summer is for council camps. And our pack does that, we offer free fall, winter and spring camps for our cubs. The summer council camps are pricey. So it's nice to offer the alternatives. It would be intersting to understand why the limit.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

5yearscouter ... agree with your comments ... I think it's less about insurance and more about "keeping things at arms length" ... BSA promotes the concept that BSA provides a program and charter organizations own the scout units. It's a problem then because most "parents of" groups are just hollow shells only existing to run the scout unit(s) and have no organization providing oversight of the units. I shake my head though because most charter orgs don't have a clue and provide zero oversight of their units anyway.

... letter from the council... interesting. - "information regarding their duties, responsibilities and liabilities as the charter organization did not flow down to successive groups of parents" - As opposed to what? Most charter orgs don't know squat about their units except that they meet in the building. I think it's much less about knowledge and much more about the identity of the "parents of" group. If the "parents of" change as the membership changes, where is the separate sponsoring organization? - "personal liability" versus "corpoate liability" - IMHO, this is the big one. I remember the fear panic that IRS and courts would rule contract employees are really normal employees subject to back pay of benefits if they work for the company for a long time in the exact same manor as a normal employee. I could see BSA national fearing that judges / government would rule the units were fully owned by BSA national and BSA national had sole responsibility for those units. BSA wants other groups with deep pockets to have some skin in the game too. Sounds like a good decision.

Try SOAROL.com. Pluses - Integrates with troopmaster/packmaster. Automatic email lists. Automatic newsletters. Easy to post pictures, annoucements and other items. Any page can be public or private based on what you want or need. *** Calendars integate with outlook, google calendar, iphone calendars etc.) Generally a great solution. Cons - Costs $99 per year (reasonable). No printable calendar. Note that scoutlander.com wants "donations" now.

Qwaze - Drop me a private message with your email address and I will forward you the script and the result. It's not a perfect solution. And google scripts can be a bit flaky. And it's not 100% automatic. But it works and it's quick and easy once you've done it once.

Thanks for the response. We've adopted some of what your saying. - Our plan now is to hand out updated calendars three or four times a year. - We've found a way using Google scripts and Google docs to auto-generate a "printable" calendar from our official calendar. Looks pretty good too. - We're able to fit about 18 months of events on one double sided page. We've left space at the end for posting a KEY (what's a PLC, etc) and for listing events more than 18 months out (high adv, etc).

I don't think it's necessary to get legalistic. From what I've seen, people pretty much ignore the Laser Tag rule. Even those on our council shooting sports committee have contempt for the laser tag G2SS ban.

Hmmmmm.... I had not thought of that one. Paint ball with catapults. Hmmm..... Yeah laser tag is out, but this might be interesting.