fred8033

Get them their advancements at the pack meeting after they earn it. Don't wait. Your not. That's good. BUT ... Having B&G done in Feb is fairly important. Not critical, but it's an emphasized time. Boy Scout troops often prepare programs for new scouts starting in March. Work with your local troops to confirm. If in doubt, plan to celebrate 5th grade webelos becoming boy scouts in February at the B&G. I have seen scouts feel like outsiders for a bit because ten Cub Scouts cross to Boy Scouts in Feb and then another pack waited to March. The cubs then missed any welcoming ceremonies, introductions, parent talks, etc. Just a thought.

Swimming MB - "barely passing the swim test" - Ummm... I'd counsel and discuss it with him. Then I'd encourage and wish him the best. Isn't that the purpose of a MB? To learn and develop a skill? Seems totally appropriate to work on the swimming badge to become a better swimmer. Part of my counsel would be managing and measuring success. For him, success might not be leaving summer camp with a MB. It might be for him becoming a better swimmer. It might also be that he'll have to work harder than some of the other scouts and to not feel bad if others are ahead of him. We've had several scouts do both lifesaving and swimming at camp. Our advice was that they might want to be out of the water part of their day. But it was their choice. The main concern was if the classes met at the same time. Pioneering MB is a great way to develop T21 skills. Apply BSA's nonsensical statement. "Any scout can work on any MB with scoutmaster approval." If BSA had an issue with it, a Pioneering MB requirement would be that the scout first be 1st class. ... I'm looking back at my previous message. I should probably apologize for being a bit harsh. My dandruff was up over a different post.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah - Very well said. Tampa Turtle - That's funny in a sad way. I fell away during college, but later my wife and I started attending an evangelical church near our 1st house. I returned to the Catholic Church around twelve years ago because of theology. (too long a discussion for a bulletin board). IMHO, scandals exist everywhere. But it's hard to take the external bad press and bigotry and the internal total lack of marketing sense. For example, if you let an external organization like GSUSA know you are looking at the churches relationship with them, then you should darn well know it will get into press headlines. Anyway, I wish GSUSA the best and hope this is resolved successfully from both sides.

Zealot - That's a first. Cool. Studies ranging from 10% to 80% - yeah ummm if you bother to use any of those numbers without understanding where they come from, what they represent and if they are real, ... then your just plain intellectually dishonest. "threats of eternal damnation and hellfire" - I can't remember a single sermon about it. I grew up with a church that preached love, forgiveness, service and prayer. Sermons on hell and damnation sound more like some street corner self-proclaimed evalgelist. ... And ya know the last street barker I encountered was two years ago at 1:00am December 25th leaving midnight mass at my church after celebrating the greatest Christmas gift ever. And there on his home made pulpit (literally, a platform he built himself) was a man who was screaming at the top of his lungs for us to convert because our church was so evil. On Christmas morning. As we rejoice for the birth of our Lord. I don't even need to quote what he said because he sounded just like you BadenP.

How long? As long as the scouts want. Patrols are formed either #1 at the annual cub scout (new scout patrol) transition or #2 when a set of scouts want to create their own patrol. My first son was in the same patrol with the same scouts for seven years. It was a great experience and they were best of friends. A few scouts popped between patrols. Most didn't. No big deal. Their choice. The patrol got smaller over the years until it was just three scouts when they were 17 years old. That was fine. It was the 7th year and they were pretty independent and helped the troop as a whole. (different troop) My second son was in a new scout patrol with an assigned older scout because new scouts are too young to lead themselves. Ummm... yeah. Don't agree. Different topic. The net result is he (and his fellow scouts) have been bounced around a fair amount and they don't feel much allegiance to their patrol and no identity as a patrol. I clearly like the "forever" patrol model. Shaking up patrols? If you must, let the scouts choose ... preferrably individual scouts by choice ... not be leaders (youth or adult) dictating membership. But then again, that's me and our troop.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Nonsensical? Amazing how committed scouters mock BSA key guiding statements. Sometimes these strong statements exist because experienced scouters have so much experience that they lack the ability to listen and learn. Beavah - Much of your response is for exactly what the MBC SM approval is for. "Sometimes boys need to be counseled..." "and so steers him" Use the approval step to counsel and guide, but it's not really for a YES/NO stamp of approval. If a boy wants to work on a badge and won't take advice, let him. He'll learn his lesson when he tries to work with the MBC or tries to complete the requirements. It will be a learning experience for setting goals and taking advice. Discretion thru advice and coaching is the scoutmaster job. Dictatorship ... not so much. I've seen the "No, not yet" scouters way too often. Usually, it's when scouters don't trust scouts to have their own scouting experience. Perhaps this is a your troop versus my troop issue. Different troops. Different styles. Fine. I'm just glad I'm in my troop. I'll just smile at your troop and then go back to mine.

60% ??? BadenP is conveniently misquoting again to assert his anti-Catholic bigotry. And I do clearly 100% mean bigotry in every ugly hatefilled sense of the word. The 60% comes from a Vatican statistical analysis of the numbers. When clerical abuse happens, world wide the average is 60% homosexual in nature. In the US, it's 80% homosexual. It's not at all saying 60% or 80% of priests, monks or deacons are gay. It's analyzing the situations when abuse does happen. It's not at all analyzing the percent of the population. .... My wife says I'm a pretty socially liberal person, but I have mostly aligned with the Republican camp. I think the main reason is that when I was young all the mean ugly unreasonable bigotry ... and hatred ... I saw was from the Deomcratic side. When I saw misrepresentation of the facts, it was from a liberal side. We see that ugly rhetoric again in this discussion topic. I know it happens on both sides, but when I heard just plain ugly rhetoric, it was from Totenberg about Helms. Whoopi Goldberg on Sen Dole. Heck, I only ever heard racist comments when working in a union factory. I know it happens both sides of the fence. But even today, I see hatred inflamed mostly from one side. Perhaps, I was sheltered. My early conservative examples were thru the local Dorthy Day center or the Little Sisters of the Poor or Sister Giovanni helping the local hispanic high school drop out popuation. That's the conservatives I learned from. And ya know what, that's been fairly consistent thru the years. .... So a group of Catholic representatives are concerned that they are sponsoring a group whose culture and teachings might anti-Catholic. That's their right. There is a culture clash between GSUSA teachings and Catholic church teachings. But it's not central to GSUSA ... IMHO. Ideally, GSUSA should leave those topics to the families and the sponsor groups and the church should be able to just let the GSUSA be. But we're pretty political these days with many people spouting hatred. Just read what some people have written in this thread. .... On a lighter side that might be more topical.... "Girls need both female and male role models to be truly well rounded.", published in girl scouts, Girl Scout Council of the Nation's Capital, Volunteer Essentials, Girl Scout Year, 2011-2012, page 68. .... huh .... funny .... I think my Catholic Church would agree with this.

What level of defacing? Using a knife to cut words into it? Permanent marker? Ketchup? Other?

Second Class wrote: "While it may be perfunctory, it is not useless. ...." That's exactly as I learned it. It's not about scout readiness. (scout can work on any merit badge at any time) It's making sure the scoutmaster's included in the process, can coach the scout and guide the process. And, BSA doesn't even require scoutmaster approval all the time. For example, certain merit badge fairs, summer camps and special events such as Jamboree's don't require scoutmaster approval at all. I had to read http://usscouts.org/factfiction/meritbadges.asp to realize it's the next paragraph the explains the approval. GTA section 7.0.0.2 says "A unit leader should consider making more of the process than just providing an OK. The opportunity exists, then and there, to share in a young man's life. Preliminary merit badge discussions can lead to conversations about talents and interests, goal setting, and the concept of "challenge by choice." The benefits can be much like those of a well-done Scoutmaster conference." I've never seen a scout not receive scoutmaster approval.

BadenP wrote: "AHG is a religious propaganda group preaching prejudicial and misinformation to its girls." Really? I guess it's all a matter of perspective. This is a reflection of why I'm not surprised the church is questioning GSUSA. Not that GSUSA is that bad. But there is a big attitude difference (i.e. a strong secular emphasis) and goals. With today's hyper-sensitive society, I'm surprised to see churches support GSUSA. Years ago people would ignore the differences and focus on the big issues (i.e. a youth program for girls). Now, people use these minor issues to drive wedges between groups and use these youth groups as battle fields. I'm not sure if AHG is or is not an alternative. But it's more aligned with the beliefs of most Christian churches. I do wish AHG was more than Christian churches. (i.e. more like BSA) But that's me.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Ya know. I'm actually surprised this did not come earlier. Politics of change long ago started using youth groups as fields of battle. Minor issues are now used to drive wedges between groups. Anyway ... I'm not surprised because over the years I've talked with several girl scout professionals, essentially parrallel to a district exec. During those conversations when discussing the difference between BSA and GSUSA, the girl scout leaders emphasized the differences. Quickly pointing out the openness for accepting all leaders. I don't remember the acceptance of male leaders. And several other topics. What I remember distinctly was the tone of the conversation and that GSUSA as much more forward thinking than BSA. The tone just didn't seem like a Catholic sponsored youth group.

Scoutfish wrote: "But realize at this point, the SM can disapprove a MB card if the scout shows that he's not ready or dedicated enough to work on or complete the badge as it would be a waste of the MBC's time." This is one that's not 100% clear. All the analysis I've read says no. Scoutmasters are not to use the approval process that way. That's not what the approval is for. Everything I've read about that approval refers the approval to be used for knowing what's going on, recommending merit badge counselors and essentially mini-SMCs. Not a point to judge whether a scout is ready to work on a badge. BSA does clearly state any registered scout can work on any merit badge at any time.

I hate getting into discussions like this. It's a no-win situation. Torn on one side to be kind and loving to others. Torn on the other side to be true to my faith and to teach my faith to my family. I think the only answer is as Beavah said. Get government out of marriage. I can easily accept two other people having the sample legal rights as my wife and I. I can accept teaching my children that others have the same legal rights and we treat everyone with love and respect. But I can't accept teaching my children it's the same as marriage. I can't teach them it's right. It's not according to my faith and not according to most of the faiths in this world. Heck, simply as an engineer and someone who's also done plumbing and electrical work, it's just not how the parts work. Sure, you can jury rig things and sort of make it look okay. But I'd rather assemble the parts as they naturally work together. Requires less duct tape. Anyway, I always regret getting into these debates. .... I was thinking how this debate affects the terms mother and father. We have a scout who says he has two mothers and two fathers. Divorce yes, but the two moms are together and the two dads are together. It's weird. But it's not a discussion topic in the troop and just doesn't come up. Most of the younger scouts don't realize the situation. Most of the older scouts and adults just ignore the situation. BUT ... the government birth certificate lists MOTHER and FATHER. One of each. I knew adoption can change things. But what I didn't realize is other states have already changed the original birth certificates to reflect mother/parent and father/parent? Interesting. It's like the state is giving up tracking the biological parents. IMHO, that's interesting and not smart. It's important to know who the biologicial parents are as it is useful in future genetic screening, tracking and analysis. Plus, what happens in the situation we have? Do you basically have an add-on form for parent 1, parent 2, parent 3 and parent 4? And a random odds generator to figure out who the biological parents are? .... I can only think back to the many years of the Maury Povich show. "You are the father!" Now, what do you mean by father? Maybe in the future we'll have Maury Povich show saying "You are the mother!" Ummm... what do you mean by mother? Ummm... what do you mean by marriage? Big M or little m? .... Good luck with the debate everyone. It is an interesting time. I think I'll get back to focusing on scouting topics.

IMHO, these are boundary cases. Though the MBC is not completely unreasonable, the MBC is definitely adding requirements. The MBC is the interpretter of the requirements. But the scout has the right to judge if the MBC is being fair ... and ... the scout has the right to find another MBC. .... First Aid MB - When flooded with too many scouts wanting a merit badge, summer camps establish priority rules for who can get in. But that's different than requiring a scout to be of that rank. If the scout thinks the counselor is unfair, the scout can find another MBC. There are usually a good number of first aid MBC around. Most don't add the first class requirement. The key is that it's the scouts option. What's funny is that many troops encourage scouts to earn the First Aid MB as soon as possible as it overlaps with T21 requirements. AND, first aid is an important skill to develop as soon as possible. Personally, unless I was flooded with scouts, I don't know why you'd ever tell a scout to wait to earn a first aid MB. .... Personal Fitness MB - Requirements 7, 8 & 9 say to record the results; compare; analyze; and, discuss. *** IMHO ***, nothing says the MBC has to be there during any of the testing (pre, during or post). Though not entirely unreasonable, I generally don't like it when requirements are read to make it more difficult for the scout. "Whoops, you missed week four testing with me. Yeah, you did the testing at home last week and recorded the results as stated in the MB handbook, but that's not what I expect. You need to start over." I'd hope they'd just require re-testing at week four and face a one week delay. But the original post did say they "would not be able to finish the badge". And even then, it's the counselor not recognizing the scout for doing the requirement as written. .... Sometimes it's a judgement call. A good MBC will help the scout learn and grow. A good scout will be flexible and see past small legalities. Though I cringe at the two examples, hopefully the scout can find common ground with the MBC and have a good experience. If not, find a different MBC.

qwazse - 13 year old girls can be venturers now. But your points are well taken. Did like the suggestion that SM and Crew advisors be present during cub recruitment. Great idea. Can't see it happening with current structure. But still a great idea. If nothing else, a one-unit concept would help eliminate the attitude void between cub scout leaders and boy scout leaders.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Everyone - Thanks. I must admit from what others have written and what Beavah wrote, I'd prefer moving toward a one-unit concept. If nothing else than for the simple fact that wolves, bears and webelos often drop out because they get bored and don't have much visibility into troops and crews. They perceive scouting from the cub scout view. If they could see more about what's coming, I think they would get more excited. Having a "one unit" view would reveal that. Plus the "transition" between cubs to troops and from troops to crews is an unnatural step that also puts the choice in place to just drop. I think it would also help the continual problem with Cub Scouts, leader turn over. Most cub leaders get up to speed around the time their cubs move on. It does not promote a strong impressive program.

Crew21_Adv wrote in another thread about the UK's one unit concept for scouts ages 5 to 25. What do people think about this? It's intriguing to me as it eliminates the dreaded Webelos transition. Other comments? Does this resemble 4H or other groups too much? Personally, this sounds like a great idea to me. All my sons could be in the same unit at the same time. Different activities. Different skill levels. But the same unit. Thoughts?

February at Blue and Gold is sort of a nation wide standard and BSA teaches it. Some units do it differently.

We do four COH per year and they are high points for the year. One at summer camp. One each in Nov, Feb and May. The Feb one has less advancement as it's only been a few months, but the May one is huge with a slide show set to music showing the last year. We do every COH as pot-luck meals. In May, the troop grills the main dish. The program is more relaxed and friendly. The scouts really enjoy it. I've been to formal sit for 90 minute COH. Those are painful.

Back to ZZZZZZzzzzz.....

Ah that makes sense. Thus discrimination. Of course we can't show movies like that to the scouts.

I thought invidious discrimination was discrimination against those speaking Latin. Could be my Catholic background though.

"You say discrimination as though it is a bad thing..." ... now that's funny

Here we go again ... good time for a nap. ZZZZZzzzzz.....

If you have concerns, you have a duty to pursue them. Especially as your the scoutmaster. It doesn't have to be a witch hunt. It can be just a friendly conversation about how to treat others and a subtle discussion about hazing. Remember those new scouts can be very worried their first night. Scare them enough and they won't come back.