fred8033

Beavah - I've got alot of respect for your well informed rationality and logical conclusions. But I think this is our constant difference of position. I believe the whole scouting environment is to be used to teach lessons and develop character. I'm all for high expectations and a solid program. But advancement is only one of the eight methods to be used to achieve our goals. ... The issue I have is that the advancement program is a commitment to the scout documented in his scout handbook. It lists specific steps to earn the next rank. It's a commitment that when the scout completes those requirements, he's earned his rank. For this scout, he completed his POR. IMHO, logically it's impossible and practically it's almost impossible to complete a POR without automatically completing "active". Again, IMHO, after a requirement is met, the requirement can't become incomplete again. So now, he's being asked to do more to show he's active, to show his commitment to scouting, to show he's earned his rank. Again IMHO, asking for more or deeming him unworthy is a horrible lesson to teach. It teaches that goal posts can be moved. That people will manipulate the rules for their higher purposes. That not everyone will be on your side. That you shouldn't necessarly trust those put in place to help you. The most important lessons we teach are taught by how we conduct ourselves. High expectations, great! Knowing how the program works, great! BUT, the most important is being fair, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, etc. And giving credit where credit is due. ... If you look back over this scout's last four years, I'm betting scouting has affected this scout's character and taught lessons. He's done four merit badges and an eagle project. And he has good character traits as described earlier. So that's involved the BSA methods of ideals, association with adults, leadership development, uniform, personal growth and advancement. Again IMHO, this exact situation calls for celebrating the scout's achievement and congratulating him. Nothing else.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

acco40 wrote: "I agree, if a unit is struggling with "who's the boss" the unit is doomed." Fully agree. What you said is key. We achieve by working together. We fail by putting up walls. BUT ... It's still very useful to understand how things are designed or documented. http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Boyscout-troop.gif I've seen it in several manuals. I think one was the Troop Committee Guidebook. I've also seen it in other documents but don't have them with me. Need to look it up. I've found several for packs. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx ... acco40: "The committee, the Scoutmaster or complete strangers may lobby the charter organization to remove adults leaders but only the charter organization may do so." Actually, it's pretty easy to remove leaders from troop membership. I can do it by going to the scout office and asking a person be removed from our roster. It's adding a person that requires both my signature (CC) and the COR. ... acco40: "It is not the committee's responsibility to approve or disapprove the program that the youth, in conjunction with your guidance, develop." Pretty much agree and I've never seen it happen. But "strictly speaking" the troop committee can reject the program. It's a simple reporting hierarchy. If the committee / committee chair disagrees with the program, they can direct changes occur. (never seen it happen). And if the SM won't make changes, then they can replace the SM until the program is as desired. ... As for forms ... LOL ... I've been working with the BSA forms for years. I never thought about the signatures. But it makes perfect sense. Cubmaster / scoutmaster signs off on youth. CC & COR both sign off on adults. LOL. I've been CC/COR for so long and have had the blessing of CM & SM to sign my name ("or designee") on the youth form. I forgot about the differences.

SpencerCheatham - I'm saddened by your comments. Luckily this scout made his way home before you and your fellow leaders "knew better". ... I don't know this scout, but given that you said "He is a polite, intelligent, reverent, hard working young man who lives the Scout spirit outside of Scouting." You also said he completed the explicit requirements to earn eagle. Merit badges. Position of responsibility. Project. Previous ranks. ... SpencerCheatham wrote: "Instead he chose to be more active in other extracurricular activities." What I'm hearing is that you and your fellow scout leaders are upset that most of this scout's journey was not done with your troop. You knew enough about him to judge him polite, intelligent, reverent, etc. But you wanted more. Would he have been a more worthy Eagle scout if he had just completed those last four badges and his project several years earlier? All I can say is send him my way. I'd be glad to help him find a supportive troop that will support him complete HIS scouting journey. ... Our troop had a scout in this exact situation. He hadn't changed troops at the point of the problem, but was very busy for the last two years and all the troop leaders changed over in those two years. They wanted to get to know him and see him step up. But he had already completed everything that was required. He even had a signed Eagle project workbook. He stood his ground and I'm very impressed for him doing that. His troop stood it's ground. So, he transferred to our troop and we were glad to help him take the few final steps to receive his earned Eagle rank. ... As for practical tests to earn Eagle, fine. Talk to BSA. Get them to change the advancement process. Until then, don't complain about the scouts or expect more than is required. Our job is to support the scouts and hold them accountable to BSA's requirements.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Horizon wrote it dead on. The one thing I'd add is that by the time boys hit 14-15 most scouts are just repeating the same experiences and camping trips over and over again. By the age of 14 /15 ... Four or five weeks of summer camps. 30 to 55 weekend camping trips. 100 to 180 troop meetings. It's entirely natural, and to be encouraged, for a fifteen year old scout to want new experiences ... sports, school plays, choir, jobs, dating, etc. Plus we want our Eagle scouts to be outgoing, inquisitive and exploring other opportunities. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Bylaws - Waste of time - Agreed. short guide for new parents - Useful.

Basement wrote: "The CC and CM are peers. The CM does not work for the CC or vice verse. The COR can remove you at any point or time for any reason. The Cubmaster is appointed by the COR. The COR can pick how ever he wants. Practically, you are correct. In a well run pack with leaders who are all friends, you are correct. But technically, the CC runs the pack committee and the CM reports to the committee. CC and CM are not peers. Same with troops. SM reports to the committee led by the CC. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx So yes in the long run everyone reports to the COR (except the COE) in the same that everyone reports to the CC except the COR and COE. As for who is responsible for new leaders including the CM, it's a combination of the CC and COR. CC is to guide the process and make sure it happens. COR though has final approval. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/06-801.pdf (page 10) http://www.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/pdf/33118_WB.pdf (page 5 and 8) In reality, packs can use any process they want to choose leaders.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah wrote: "Fund raisin' apps should be dropped. If we can't get it together to approve a project and its fundraisin' at the same time, that's our problem, not the boy's." I was ready to fully agree as I don't see much use for it. The project plan already has a place for a description of how the project will be paid for and how much money is needed. In our district, we already have one guy that signs both the project plan and fundraising app. One meeting. I don't see any need for second form. BUT ... then I just double checked the form ... "Are there contracts to be signed?" ... "If so, by whom?" ... "Contract details" I don't know the right answer. I know the form did not add any value to my son's project and he raised $1800. But I could see a larger project needing higher approval levels. I don't know the right answer.

Does it honor the flag? Does it show respect? Is it a good example to set? If so, go for it. IMHO, the issue is "... but candidly a little blah". And this might be another thread. Our troop's COHs, except Eagle, are pretty casual. Slide shows. Announcements. Scouts awarding scouts. Handshakes. Funny stories. Scoutmaster moment. It's actually a very enjoyable experience. And given that we have four per year, we did not want to make them like sitting through a 90 minute junior high violin concert. I've been to a few COH's that are down right painful. All you think about is how uncomfortable the chair is and how much time is left.

Eagle732 wrote: "fred, when our boys send in the fundraising app they keep a copy of the signed form for their book and send in to council the original. We never (even when sending in troop fundraising apps) get anything back verifying that it was received or approved. But the eagle candidates to have a copy of the signed form." Is the council signature line signed? That's what I was wondering. It sounded like a strange process. There's nothing in any eagle process that we have about submitting the fundraising paperwork to the council. The DAC person signs the fundraiser form too. He's the designated council approver. At that point, we're done. No need to do anything with the form. I was just wondering because it sounded like in the discussed process the scout would never have a form with the "council" signature signed. I must be mis-understanding something. Because if it's signed, why wait? But if not signed, you send it in. But you only hear back if it's not approved? But then you don't get a signature. I guess I don't understand something.

Two different questions - Hardest to fill? Treasurer. It's hard to fill because the person needs to be committed to spend hours with scouting on paperwork during off-scouting hours. Their main preparation for scouting meetings is to prepare reports and chase money. Not to mention the person needs to be fairly organized and slightly technical savy. What would you hand them if they walked in off the street and wanted to volunteer? Something fun. Something specific. Organize and run and event. Run a program segment for a pack meeting. As specific as possible and as fun as possible. Something to get them ownership of the unit.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Packsaddle ... Revisionist history? I'm not an expert in this, but it's easy to see the topic is way more complex and both sided than your representing. And your throwing part of the truth out is just a way to defend your position without honest reflection. ... In 1537, another pope issued Sublimus Dei strongly condeming slavery with concepts such as rational beings with souls and slavery was driven by satan. In 1542, Spain was also the 1st nation to ban colonial slavery. The Christian / Catholic position on slavery has evolved over time. And then when you read about historical slavery discussed in the Bible it was usually discussing "just slavery" where an individual sells himself or another family member to pay debt. Very much related to the concept of an indentured servant. There were rules on how to treat such a person, how long it could go for (i.e. not indefinite), etc. One rule was that you could not enter just slavery thru capture. In 1839, Pope Gregory issued Supremo Apostolatus which condemned slavery and specifically the slave trade. Yes some american bishops did make legalistic arguements about trade versus own. But there was also a huge Catholic abolisionist movement. ... One point that I found really interesting is that when Mexico opened up Texas to american settlers, the settlers could not legally bring slaves in because Mexico (Catholic) did not allow slavery. (ummmm... The United States was founded essentially as and largely still is a protestant nation.) Of course Texas is also not an easy analysis. Lots of politics. Lots of situational issues. Lots of specifics. ... Anyway ... I'm providing just as much a choppy analysis of history. Catholic church was and is not perfect and has never been insulated from the politics of the times. But it's just a smear campaign to point your finger as your doing.

BadenP - Get a grip. Your wantonly uninformed hatred is driving you to irrationality better suited for Jerry Springer than rational society.(This message has been edited by fred8033)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah wrote: "Gumbies are hikin' down the trail with stuff lashed on, clipped on, or draped on like wilderness hobos." LOL. That was me about six years ago. I've been so focused on the current squeaks that I totally forgot about that first time. You quickly learn to not hang a water bottle. They are heavy. With each step, it wack'ed me. Not cool. That changed pretty fast. Any advice on the squeaks? I was thinking because I've got the expandable frame expanded to max. Comments?

Eagle732 wrote: "The troop's policy is we don't sign the fundraising app until the book is completed through to page 17 (fundraising app) and reviewed by us. Anyone else dealing with this? " Yes. We just require what the eagle book requires. That's thru page 10, not 17. If fundraising, he fills out that form and we sign it. Both the workbook thru page 10 and the fundraiser app is reviewed and signed off by the district advancement coord. Happens in one sitting usually within a few days of the eagle candidate requesting district approval. After that sitting, he uses the final plan (pages 11-17) and other documents as necessary to plan and run his project. There is room for interpretation. I don't agree with the interpretation, but your troop might find it useful to interpret it differently. It's probably not that big of an issue either way. ... Eagle732 wrote: "I don't recall ever getting anything back from council on a fundraising app. We just send them in and do the fundraiser and never worried about the waiting period." Huh. That's a new view. Never thought of it. I've been reading that, when the project is done, the scout needs to submit his workbook for his BOR and processing. So your saying the workbook would contain a Fundraising application that didn't have all the signatures? Huh. That's interesting. Not sure what I think about that.

"And then, the fundraiser form states that he must wait for 2 weeks before even contacting the business where he intends to do his fundraiser or the stores from which he hopes to secure donations of materials" Agree with previous poster. This is a mis-reading. The form says the following. Eagle Workbook quote: ""... and then submit the fundraising application to your council service center at least two weeks in advance of your fundraising efforts. You will be contacted if it cannot be approved or ..." IMHO, it means you need to schedule two weeks to get council appoval. But if the council designated rep approved it, then your good to go. The waiting time is over. It's just a warning to make sure you plan two weeks to get through council beaurocracy.

Tampa Turtle - Great points with very good reasons. "... but truth be told they were not the best examples of Scouthood to start with. " .... I've seen that tool. I think it's the age though as they test new more challenging boundaries such as dating, work and friends that drink or do drugs. In a way , I like the insullation of similar age patrols because older scouts tend to have more "interesting" conversations. Also, it's nice to not have older-scout attitude rub off on younger scouts. But that's me. I guess it comes down to what the troop wants and is hoping to achieve. When I look at my first two sons, I really like the experience my older son had. I'm sad for my second son because his patrol which has changed sever year to 18 months just has no identity and they break up to go be with their friends anyway. Sort of sad. Maybe it could have been done better. I don't know. I just know both of my sons started Boy Scouts with strong friendships with the other Webelos crossing over. my oldest now has life long friends and they quickly learned skills, leadership and how to help others. My second son has good friends but it's just not the same. Another reason that I do like age-based patrols. The older scouts tend to get chosen for SPL, TG, ASSPL, etc. Older patrols seem to survive better with members who pop in and out because of PORs. Younger scouts need to stick together more. Tampa though your points are still well taken.

Years ago I bough the only two we have. I bought two external frame packs. Kelty Yukons. One's a Yukon 2900. I forget the other number. I bought them with the idea I could strap alot on and also use carabiners to hang things. Well. They are comfortable and carry alot. Easy to use. Very flexible. BUT ... I really want to buy replacements. Probably internal frames. The problem with hanging things with carabiners is the noise as things bounce around. It gets noisy. Even though if you don't hang anything, it squeaks. Hours of hiking with squeak squak squak and you'll want to find a different pack too. Not sure if any pack doesn't squeak, but that's my highest priority these days for packs.

My gosh. This feels so wrong. Are we reaching some sort of agreement? I'd be okay with a SM not approving if the desired MBC historically does a bad job or has some other issue. Same with MB fairs though I've not seen one that does that bad a job. If anything, I've seen the opposite.

Beavah - I think your using edge examples to over emphasize the SM signature. courtesy issues - To me that's a membership issue, not a MB issue. A scout won't get far in anything if he can't work with others. If he won't ask me politely, then I won't sign. Of course. If I think he'll be rude to others, then I'll be talking with him about his future in scouts. But it won't be caused by his asking for MB card. Safety issues - of course ... if they really exist ... The only one I've seen is swimming which is the pre-requisite of the water related badges. The SM should council the scout. But if the scout thinks he can get it done for the badge, great. I'd also check with the MBC that the MBC will be doing a swim test and make sure we're on the same page. It's the job of the MBC to confirm requirements, not the SM. SM approval is in no way an indication that any badge requirement is complete. Heck, I'd even do that if I thought the scout could swim. I expect MBC for water related badges to make sure the scout passes the MB requirements for swimming. external restrictions - option, find another MBC or let the scout find another MBC. That happens. If you can't find another MBC, then the scout's out of luck. But that's not a SM disapproving the badge. camp restrictions for numbers - Then those restrictions are from the camp, not the SM. We've also asked about those limits in the past. If they are not overwhelmved with too many scouts, they've let our scouts in when we ask. The only one at our camp is First Aid MB. They'd get half the camp every year. But other badges like shutgun prioritize the available slots by age and rank and don't list a pre-requisite. Sometimes we don't even get 14 year old star scouts in because of too many scouts. But that's the camp restriction, not the SM. camp restrictions for ability - See safety above. ... While there are probably extreme cases that might cause a SM to say no, I haven't seen any. In my eight years, I've never seen our SM say no. Sometimes the SM has let the scout know he didn't get in because they had too many scouts or had established limits. But it wasn't the SM saying no.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I really like this article from the Scouting Magazine. It reflects my thoughts. The comment from "Scouter" on May 1, 2012 at 12:00 is pretty good too. http://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/how-scouts-friendships-strengthen-patrols/ ... Tampa Turtle: When they are moved from the new scout patrol to the forever patrol, are they in that patrol forever? Is the new patrol their choice? Can they switch if they want? Just wondering about patrol identity and ownership of the scouts over their own patrol. ... The only problem we've had is when a SPL or youth leader goes to a council led leadership training program and hears that patrols should be re-organized and scouts told what patrol they are going to be in. That's fine, but it's not how our troop has historically done it. Most scouts that have discussed it prefer the historical model. You are in a patrol with your friends and scouts of same age with similar experience level. But then they are told that's not how it's supposed to be. Sort of frustrating. We have to unteach some of that stuff by refering to scoutmaster handbook and boy scout handbook. .... I think the main reason I like age based / friend based patrols is that scouts tend to sign up for events by age and friendship. Snow huskies weekend is for new scouts ages 11 - 12. Spearhead requires scouts to be 13. High adventure 13 or 14 and up depending on event. With age / friendship based patrols, it is higher odds that more members of the same patrol are signing up to do the same activities together. Otherwise, it's a hodgepodge of scouts from a hodgepodge of patrols. (not sure if hodgepodge is a word)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Merlyn_LeRoy wrote: "so I'm limited to insults by saying..." Why are you limited to insults? Civility and tolerance is avoiding insults. State points. Debate ideas. Extend the discussion. You've done enough insulting and demeaning of others.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Merlyn_LeRoy: : "you ignorant hick" ... "Like phony hick accents" ... and thus clarifying the source of the real ugly hate spawning rhetoric. Merlyn_LeRoy - Shame on you. You should observe the scout law in this forum even though you are not a scouter and don't plan to become a scouter. Society needs a degree of civility to discuss ideas and exist together.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Ya learn something every day. I'd never seen all the different versions put side by side. Thank you Beavah. That was really cool to see. I still miss the more simple version that was established after Vatican II and used around 1975. http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm It's consistent with the new version but uses fewer sylabols. Easier to participate in after waking up from the sermon.

sasha - I like what you wrote in that cross-over is a boy scout process. I've always viewed it as a Cub Scout owned process supported by the Boy Scouts. Mainly because troops can accept boys at any time. But the reality is that troops often want Webelos to cross over at a specific time. So Webelos dens should coordinate with the troop when the cross over ceremony will be. It doesn't have to be at the B&G. Just like advancements. It can be any time. We've just grown accustomed to having the big B&G party be used to celebrate Webelos crossing into Boy Scouts. Nice point Sasha. Let the cross over be owned by the Boy Scout troops. Hmmm....

Tampa Turtle - I always hope cases like you mention are from the 1980s or earlier. From about the 1990s onward, there has been a strong emphasis on handling such situations correctly. It wasn't always done correctly though such as the 1989 Little Rascal's day care case or the early recovered memory cases. But organizations should have been moving from CYA to let's do the right thing, especially churches.