fred8033

I'm a little jaded. I don't trust a council or a CO to hold cash for a future scouting unit that would be created years down the road. My gut feeling says the funds would be rolled into a general fund.

@Armymutt had a good solution. When we shut down a unit, we gave our equipment to a newer unit that was just starting. It was the best use.

"out of town" ... What does that mean? 20 minute drive? Or is it a short drive, but a different school district, etc? There is no clean answer. Finding the right troop is a mix of magic / luck of the draw / luck that you make. When the magic is right, scouting is great. I'd look at the whole picture ... drive time ... adventure ... effort to create / setup new troop ... desire of parents to be leaders and setup a new unit, etc. ... There is no right answer. Sadly, I do know the time in scouting goes quick. I greatly miss the 20 years in scouting with my boys. Note that the time in a troop is actually much shorter than you think. 7 possible years, but not all seven years are equal. Nine very active months to a year as a new scout. Two strong years as a younger scout. A good year as a senior scout. Then, the scout is turning 15 or 16 years old. Conflicts. Thinking of the future. Distractions of being a young adult. Those years are very special, but scouting may not be as important anymore. ... Time in scouting goes very fast.

It happens. Demographics change affecting where kids go. Sometimes you put in all the effort and it still does not work out. IMHO, focus most on giving the remaining scouts the best possible experience possible. Maybe a few last big adventures where they can grow and have good adventures. Maybe they will find a new troop, but that's up to them mostly. IMHO, focus on a great experience.

Clarification ... IMHO ... this is part of the death knell of scouting. .... Cub Scouting age range has been expanding and changing over the years. Started as 9-11. Then 8-10 ... Started as three years only. AND ... a much more simple program ... The age range continued to grow and expand starting in the mid 1980s. We are killing the older scout program where the big character growth happens with independence, responsibility and adventure. Scouting is propping up membership numbers with younger and younger youth where scouting just doesn't shine and the youth are just too young. The result is a poor impression of scouting and an ineffective program. Cub scouts should start in 3rd grade when kids begin to develop friendships independent of activities and independent of parents.

Yeah. The fairness of the legal process in cases like this is questionable from many, many view points.

A few things ... #1 The "enforcer" role? ... What are the roles of an adult leader? Is the adult leader an "enforcer"? A wise older friend? An advisor? A safety check? ... I fear the adult leader as "enforcing" rules as it creates a separation / barrier between the scout and the adult. It creates a grudge when the phone is taken and an incentive to hide the phone and hide the person from the adult leader. #2 Consistent expectations ... Will the adult leaders police themselves and secure their phones too? Key to scout is the example that the adults set. Scouts mimic the adults. Scouts quickly see the double standards setup by the adults as hypocrisy. Obviously ... IMHO ... The purpose of scouting is to teach skills, responsibility, etc. At some point, we meet the scouts where they are instead of dragging them into the past that no longer exists. Cell phones are part of their world and part of the adult world.

Be careful. We had a SPL pushed by his dad to emphasize mixed patrols and the need to reorganize all the patrols because that's how the dad experienced it when he was a scout. The reorganization caused issues with our more senior scouts that were there to be with their friends ... and especially those that owned the identity of their patrol. A few dropped. More just hung with their original patrol mates as those were their friends and who shared their scouting time. That damaged the new patrols. It took a few years to absorb the patrol change as those older scouts had to age out. If I had to do it over, I'd roll the change in slowly over a few years as new scouts join. Ask for volunteer older scouts who are interested in helping for the new mixed age patrols. Ask the existing patrols to see who is interested in accepting younger new scouts. ... Let the scouts organize themselves. ... If some scouts want to keep their existing patrols, let them keep their patrols. ... I feel strongly about this as patrols belong to the scouts in those patrols and NOT the troop, NOT the SPL and NOT the adults. Also recognize that the next leader a few years from now may have a different opinion and want to change it again ... such as myself. IMHO, focus on the adventure and getting the scouts outside. The learning and adventure will come from that. I don't know your troop's situation, but be sensitive to the scouts in the troop as it can

#1 Absolutely agree with @skeptic that the legal system blocks youth-only patrol hiking / camping. Scouts might still be able to patrol camping with legitimate registered / trained adult supervision. It's a troop activity with a selection of patrols equal to one patrol. Beyond that, it's about liability. #2 ... Question ... Can patrols still do non-camping activities without adult supervision? Go to the movies? Bowl? Socialize? Go to a state fair? I've been out for a few years now, but we always encouraged patrols to have a "patrol" activities and it was never overseen / reviewed by troop leadership. #3 ... Scouting still provides a huge benefit. Today's youth are couch surfers with organized activities. Youth are not comfortable roughing it out in nature and don't know how to handle quiet time. Scouting can fill a huge gap. It might not be the leadership training of the past. Perhaps, scouting is needed now to fill the gap of building confidence, stretching comfort zones and teaching skills by surviving the hardship of living in nature.

Advancement is always a special topic where troops are inconsistent because each unit has it's own flair. It's some of the best and worst in scouting. The position on "participate" sounds reasonable. Some may say standing and saluting is "participation". Others interpret as raising the flag or calling the ceremony. Generally though, advancement is not that interpretable. The words in the requirements are the criteria. That's clear in the Guide to Advancement. I always fear when the conversation pushes too far to the "troop can interpret". The boundaries of what is reasonable is pretty well written in the G2A. The above on "participate" for a flag ceremony sounds reasonable. As for troops can interpret advancement, be careful.

I suspect you are referring to the form used when changing charters. I've used that form to change charters. The charter org has to yield ownership of the scouting unit (i.e. the unit number). I suspect that specific form does not apply in this case as long as the departing unit is disbanding and members just join the target unit. As for asking the charter org and scouting council for permission to give scouting property of the unit, this hits the boundary for me with my "following the rules". Charter orgs and the scouting council almost never help raise funds or manage the finances or assets of the unit. Charter orgs are rarely involved. ... As one non-profit can donate to another non-profit, the unit leadership chooses to donate if they choose. Recommendation: Be careful asking too many people thoughts and opinions on it. You will get more opinions and emotions on it. Best you can do is work to make a smooth quiet transition and focus on creating great experiences for the scouts.

I am a rule follower. It's my personality. At some point, it gets ridiculous. But, Tron sounds right. Consider a full merger instead. Sitting on the fence about merging causes it's own trouble (coordination, emotions, cost of who pays for what, etc). A full merger is easier and better in the long run. And, you don't have to ask permission. It's just a member transfer from Pack X to Pack Y. As for assets (tents, cash, etc), Pack X donates their assets to Pack Y. No one will ask and it works smoother that way.

BSA high adventure camps have their place. I doubt we would have snorkeled and camped on a Florida island or sailed off the coast of Florida without them.

Not a comment about the scout and more a comment about Eagle Courts of Honor. ECOH are a show. The scripts are usually over-the-top. Specific parts of the scripts are almost always "wrong" as no-one is being awarded a rank. Maybe, "given" as here's the rank you were awarded two months ago. The scripts usually have something like ... "Now, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the National Council of Scouting America, I hereby award the rank of Eagle Scout to you." ... The person saying these words has no "authority" to "award". Worse, the scout has already been awarded the rank and should be wearing the Eagle rank on their uniform. Your choice is whether to attend the Eagle Court of Honor and / or participate in the ceremony.

I've said the exact same thing when I saw the Lion program piloted. Burns out parents. Creates the wrong perception of scouting. Wears out the teaching elements of scouting. It's just too, too much during the early baby sitting years. IMHO, scouting (cub or troop) should start when scouts begin to be somewhat independent. Kindergarten and first grade scouts are tied too too much to the parents.

I'm 100% okay with this. I'd celebrate getting the scouts outside their comfort zone and experiencing new things. My earlier response should probably not have been written during a work mtg.

Argumentative. Patrol includes the patrol leader. The connection between SPL and non-PL patrol members is the PL. The point of the original sentence was that the guidance for the patrol (including PL) is thru the SM and the SPL and that parents need to be careful trying to influence the patrol (both patrol leader and patrol member).

Well said. "with my father" ... I can respect that. I fear this might be a psychology of the troop and a BSA training conflict. Strictly speaking, scouts are to socialize with scouts in their scouting activities and then with the other adults. In conflict, I also attending most scouting activities with my kids, but I tried to keep myself on the outskirts ... mostly. ... It is a pull/push or a training vs reality issue. ... I'm not sure there is a perfect answer other than making sure the scouts have positive growing experiences. "adult leadership crosses over" ... is really up to the troop leaders you are joining. They may very well be open to your immediately getting into a leadership role. They may want you to wait a year. They may have some in-between. ... Number one thing is to make a healthy connection with the existing unit leaders.

100% agree. Changing troop culture is nearly impossible as a new parent. It takes years. ... So for now, ask yourself ... can your son benefit, grow and enjoy the culture that currently exists. Will your scout have a positive scouting experience? Adventure? There is no perfect troop culture, but even a less than ideal scouting troop can be a big positive. Separately, to make change, plan that it takes years. Start by serving the troop that exists now. Build friendships and connections. Over time, other leaders will see your investment in the troop. Once you have positive credibility with the troop, then you can take on roles such as SM/ASM where you can influence the culture. This takes years though. If you push too hard too fast, you will alienate people. Be careful here too. Patrols are guide by the SPL and SM. You risk alienating yourself and causing issues if your words and actions are not aligned with the SM. My apologies if I'm nit picking here. I'm not trying to be a jerk. ... BUT, your son is crossing over. It's his scouting experience. His adventure. You can look for ways you can help the troop. AND, your son will definitely see you value scouting if you volunteer to help. ... "I will be crossing over" is a red flag that always makes me think about does the adult realize the youth scout is to have their own scouting experience.

Do the scout stores stock the new "Scouting America" branded MB books? Wondering if free PDFs online is a reflection that it's cheaper to make free online than to stock all the scout stores.

WOW ! That is a exciting change. IMHO, I see nothing but good by having these available online. Great marketing by showing the high quality merit badge program. Maybe more MB pamphlets will be sold because the on-line content is so impressive. Sounds inverse to the immediate action, but I would not be surprised if it happens. Might market scouting to new audiences and thus drive more involvement. For example, home schooled families may borrow the pamphlets. Then, parents seeing scouting as an easy next step to supplement home schooling. If nothing else, this allows scouting to influence other organizations.

It can be wonky though.

It does support pictures. Physical signatures are an issue. At times, we've used printed emails from the reviewers as evidence of their approval in lieu of signature. Redundancy ... yep ... most if it is because things are written three times ... once as a concept / proposal ... once while doing the work ... once in hindsight after everything is done. I agree it can keep improving and evolving. It will never be perfect. I'm just very glad we have it. I really hope the project is more about the service than about the paperwork.

Because of the sins of the past, I am a strong defender of the project workbook. In our district before 2011, the district advancement chair (and his team) were from the troops that felt it was their job to require formal presentations and require the XXX hours and require large project proposal binders submitted in advance. I truly believe they perceived their job as adding steps so that the scout could appreciate earning Eagle. I also believe if they did not think the scout's experience was enough or the scout was not "worthy", then they would add even more hoops. Worst, they were effectively using their own troop's extra expectations for the rest of the district even though it was nowhere described in the requirements for earning Eagle or any of the BSA published guides. Our troop's scouts often had to go thru multiple months of project proposal review. In 2010, one of our scouts had four plus months of district reviews and was always was sent away with requests for more information. The last month was the district asking for the project proposal to include a map to the hospital just in case something happened. The project was painting rooms at his church and installing shelving. ... THEN ... THEN ... They lost the his three ring binder of the project workbook. The project workbook does NOT exist to make the scout's job harder. It exists to reign in the adults and to set level expectations across all units, districts and councils. IMHO, the workbook and the G2A have been a true gift.

Always refer to the G2A ... Guide To Advancement. In my view ... The Eagle Project is about service and leadership in doing that service. The workbook is well laid out and explicitly describes the steps. The project is enough in and of itself. Adding troop unique expectations makes the Eagle Project more about jumping hoops and than giving service. IMHO, we teach bad lessons when we make advancement about jumping hoops. Not required and can't be required ... but troops still do it. Is it harmful? Mostly no. Is this a hill to die on either direction? No. Is it a good idea? No, but I flip flop and can see both sides. Does it help the scout? Maybe a few scouts, but mostly no. The scout MUST fill out the Eagle Project Workbook in detail. That is the scout's commitment. A PowerPoint is extra and just decorative. Committees ... chair or designee(s) ... must review the workbook. That is what is being signed and is effectively a contract. A PowerPoint presentation is NOT what is being signed off. I've had scouts show me their PowerPoint presentation required by their troop. I sat nicely and listened. ... THEN, we went section by section thru the workbook write-up because that is the commitment. Bad ... Could be the unrequired extra hoop to jump thru that causes a scout to give up on Eagle. Good ... Might give some scouts presentation practice that helps scouts later in the process ... IMHO this is a big stretch. Why do troops do it? Biggest reason I've seen is the worst because it does not match Guide To Advancement. Troops justify it as it gives scouts experience presenting to groups and talking in front of groups. IMHO, that's what the Communications MB is about. That's what the rest of the scouting program is about. Eagle project is about service and leading that service. IMHO, it smells more of committee self-importance. If a troop wants to do it, it's not a hill to die on. Smile nicely. Listen. Don't promote the practice and point out the scout requirements are in the Eagle project workbook and the Guide To Advancement. ... Sorry if I am long winded. This was a hot button topic for me as I've been involved in many Eagle project proposal reviews.