fotoscout

Hi Bob, I am not surprised that you harbor those beliefs. You realize of course that youre a bit over the top on this. The Scout Handbook is not a religious publication. Next thing well be reading about is the investiture of BP as the deity of the WCS (World Church of Scouting). We have a national division that fosters close cooperation with dozens of religious faiths, Youll of course remember that a highly regarded national publication brought some of those relationships into question, and at the least, raised the specter of Nationals concerns about how those relationships have served BSA and what national would need to do in order to sever at least one of those relationships. Bob, BSA is neither a religion, nor a religious movement. BSA is a youth organization. There is something very wrong if children are learning religion from den leaders. Try to remember, this is a game with a purpose! Games that are taken too seriously are harmful to all. (This message has been edited by fotoscout)

Nicely said Bob, but I dont view Scouting as a surrogate for religious education. Scouting is the place where, over the long term, we put to use and demonstrate the tenets of our religious training. Scouting is the place where we all work together and get along, not the place where we celebrate our differences. The essence of Scouting is most evident when we of different backgrounds come together for a Scouters Own, not when we as a polarized group conduct our own denominational prayer service. I dont believe that Scouting was ever intended to be a vehicle to teach children about their faith, thats what religious education is for. The concept in Scouting is to teach the boy that religion extends beyond your house of worship or Sunday school classroom. Too many people have developed the notion that Scouting is a surrogate or extension of their own personal crusade. I believe that too much focus on religion is hurting the scouting program.

Bob, it depends on the power of the denominator. In a polarized group the denominator can become very large. Bob, please note I did some editing while you were typing.

Txscoutdad, There were a number of things that went into the disaster, but a lack of training and effort was not one of them. Bottom line is that the congregation wasnt large enough and/or interested enough to make it work. This was not a church school but merely a relatively small congregation. I have to stand with eisely on this one! I for one would much rather have my son camp next to someone who is different than he rather than a cookie cutter replica of himself. What happened to acceptance of others and their faith. Just because one troop is not open to all does not make BSA being not open to all. Scouting build character one boy at time, not one troop at a time. It would be naive to think that the bias (intentional or not) of troop would not spill over to the youth. Given the name of your CO, I have to ask another question, do your boys have any other opportunities to build there socialization skills besides Scouting. (This message has been edited by fotoscout)

Good advice from Eamonn! I would however add slightly to it. With just the new CM and yourself doing all the work you may well burnout in short order. Talk to your parents and the other parents in the pack, get a commitment from them! I would do some sole searching if no one else steps up and commits to doing some of the work. Many people will tolerate one year of a bad program , but if you go into two years of a bad program you will most likely lose these scouts forever. Take advantage of District and Council events, the kids will have a great time and it will lighten your load!

We all know that the waterproofing for shoes may darken a pair of light colored shoes. I would guess that the same can happen to a light colored shirt such as a uniform shirt. I have used this stuff on darker colored 'shells' with no spotting or coloration issues. If you're concerened, try it on the shirt tails before doing the whole shirt.

We had a CO that did just this. They chartered a Pack and Troop for their youth groups and required that everyone be a member of that church. It started as a well intended thought, and ended horribly. The initial leadership (those who started the unit), had no idea of the work that goes into running a successful operation. They overestimated both the support that would come from the congregation, and the number of kids that would sign up for the program. In the end they had few leaders and few kids, and wanted to recruit in the community but the CO wouldnt let them, and, the other units in the area threw up roadblocks. They really had no program to recruit into anyway. The leaders left, the kids didnt transfer into any local units. Just a big disaster. This should not have been allowed to happen! Too much incentive for the DE to charter new units! By the way, the DE got a promotion and moved on before the units folded. CubScoutMom2004, I would urge your people to look to the future before placing hurdles in the way of membership.

Im not balking at our camp prices; actually its a great bargain! We are everything that Dave mentioned. 8-5 five days & early drop-off @ no extra charge, paid staff & some volunteers, shirts, patch, crafts, and, at the council camp location we even provide lunch & snack. We run two day camp programs, one at the Council Camp that runs for 8 weeks, the other travels to three different locations in the Council area, and stays two weeks at each location. All in all it's a great program.

There are a number of spray-on waterproofing agents available today. Nikwax is just one of the manufactures. Some of this stuff is for shoes and some is for clothing. It can be expensive, but it does work.

It would be nice to know why the CO seems to have turned on your Troop? What caused this situation to develop? foto

Wow, our five day Day Camp program is $175.00 give or take $25.00 depending on a few things. What a deal, $40.00 for 5 days of camp! Our Parent-Cub Weekends are $30.00 per person.

Hi Zippie2223 and welcome, Sounds like some of your parents werent ready to become parents yet. Especially since one of them was so self conscious about dropping out that she needed to build her own self help group. The toughest job in Scouting may well be the first time Tiger Leader; give your self credit for taking the job. Im sure that next years Tiger Leader would appreciate any and all help you can offer!

Eamonn, Not sure where you wanted this thread to go but Ill weigh in trying to understand the workings of our larger structure. I find it relatively easy to understand and explain what the various Commissioners do and how they function. I wish I could say the same for professional and office staff. We have huge expenditures in salaries, and although I do understand some of what happens in the office, I honestly cant reconcile the salaries with the product. Many questions are always reflected back at volunteers. Year in and year out, and with a long history, registrations and training records are a mess. On top of it, many of the paid staff are also volunteers whose efforts sometimes seem to blur the lines for me. Thats my two cents. (This message has been edited by fotoscout)

If you are saying that they have "fired" unit committees, then there is something very wrong! If they as a group have "fired" district or council committees you might want to go back and look at the details of how those committees were run, or how effective they were. Your CC and CR should have a different relationship with the unit than the UC or DC. Unless of course the UC and DC are also Comm. Members. You are lashing out in many directions, to and inclulding your own committee. Sounds like it's time to slow down and take stock of the operation.

First question, whose den is it, Yours or the CMs? Next question, where does it say that you have to put up with that type of behavior? Where does it say that you have to subject your scouts to assault, be it physical or verbal? I am sure your know the answers. You cannot knowingly put your boys in harms way. Reschedule your den meetings without telling the problem childs parents where they are being held until the situation is remedied. Let the CM create a Den of 2 for his son and the private case.

Shell, I dont think that anyone, especially not me said that committees were being propagated with phony (made up, imaginary) people. There is certainly no question that committees are being filled with any friendly nearby warm body that can sign the application, ie; spouses, friends, parents and other trustworthy individuals that are willing to offer a favor to help out with the administrative process of completing the charter. I certainly know of no one making up people just to fill the committee. In fact, with the requirement to list Social Security numbers, I dont think that a made up person could pass scrutiny. Bob, its nice to see you back. I thought you blocked me.

Hi folks and thanks for the suggestions. Traditionally camp promos here have been a one man or women show. Its difficult enough to get the committee together for a meaningful meeting, attempting to get them together to go out and do a promo would be require an act of biblical proportions. So heres what I came up with. As a gathering activity I ask the Pack to have the boys draw pictures of things they do at camp or when they go camping. Start the presentation by asking the boys, who likes to go to camp? and, who likes to go camping?. Then I ask the same questions of the parents. Then Ill ask the parents, who would like to go camping without all the work it entails? The parents now sit up and pay attention. At this point Ill take the drawings that the kids made and very quickly go through them with the boys identifying the pictures that represent things we do at our camps..... 99% of the pictures represent things that the boys can do at our camp so the process is very easy. We have a 4 minute DVD slide show of the camp which I play at this point. Before starting the DVD I ask the boys to look for the things that they drew in the pictures. The DVD ends and we again VERY quickly go back to the pictures. Now the boys understand a little bit about camp, and Ill ask them to be quiet while I explain the camp programs to the parents. Including Spring Camp, we run six separate camp formats so I touch on the high points and differences of each one moving along at a good pace. Ill make specific points about safety, first aid, staff, and especially waterfront staff. I end by going back to the question about going camping without any of the work that goes into it. At this point Ill talk more about Parent-Cub Weekends because it really is an overnighter that requires very little effort on the parents end. Of course there is some ad lib, chatter, and banter that goes on throughout, but Id say that it seems to be effective. Ill know at the end of the Summer. I'll get some quesitons at the end but not a tremendous number of them. So far I've held my ground at around 15 minutes.

I'm going to guess here that whomever is also a den leader?

Hi Kenk, Well for starters you want to stay away from canvas as a ground cloth. If might do a great job protecting your tent from sticks and stones, but I wouldnt want to carry it out after a night of rain. If you're backpacking, the tyvex is nice stuff because its lightweight. Yes youll have to replace it every once and a while. The blue tarps you might have to trim, that will cause them to fray, not a good thing. Some of the nylon stuff is great if you can get it pre cut to fit your tent. Beyond that I would stick with any heavy plastic sheeting. Remember the idea of the this thing is to take the abuse, it wont last forever, and you shouldnt care what happens to it. Having said that, I dont like to use ground cloths. I buy decent tents and check the ground where I plan to set up the tent.

Actually, what he did does have some bearing on it. If there are YP or legal issues you are well within your right to contact the DE if for some reason you can't talk with the committee. However, your committee should have at least 3 people on it, depending on who they are you should talk to them. If you feel, that they are all vested with the SM, say the Spouse, Brother and Brother-in-Law, then you can always go to the CO. But your committee wont like that.

Sometimes dan, one has to take one day at time. Forget about the lofty goals of a great CO relationship, forget the dream of great Committee operation, and get back to the roots of Scouting. For a while, stop spinning your wheels on issues with low or no potential for success. There is a great likely hood that all that effort you put into attempting a CO relationship or building a great committee has ultimately distracted you from the main focus of the program. You may have a great CO and a great Comm., but if you have a lousy program you have nothing. Use your time where it is most needed.

The Commissioner Field Book has a section on How to Remove a Volunteer. But of course its not that simple. First off, the SM is not In Command, he works for the committee. So you have to start with your committee. What did the poor guy do to deserve such harsh punishment?

Now dan, you know better than that. No baiting allowed.

How else would you propose to run the Pack?

I started this thread in an attempt to find out just how many of us actually have the perfect CO relationship and committee operation that some might assume is the reality of Scouting in the 21st century. Actually, it was the 98% comment that pushed me over the edge. Although this thread doesnt represent a large cross section by any means, it does tell the story in a small way. Some half of the posters here, dont have a utopian relationship with the CO, or, the perfect committee operation. Many struggle each day to bring a good program to the few kids (and families) that have committed in some small way to the ideals of Scouting. They dont have time to nurture the CO relationship; they dont have time to select leaders and committee people based on skills and talent, (most are in fact lucky and thankful for the leaders that they do have). Then they come here, and get accosted by an ongoing repertoire of Go to your COR, and Take it up with your CC. Odds are that many of them go to bed each night with the CC or COR. Yes, I know that those are the answers that come right out the book. I also know that the for many, the ideal CO relationship and committee structure will never happen, and that it is foolhardy to think that one can continuously beat his head against the wall until it does happen. So, for those of you that are all alone and hanging from a tree, hear this: you are doing the best that you can and the kids are getting the most that you can provide. You dont have a stellar relationship with your CO, well thats OK, dont beat yourself up about it, and dont let it divert you from your goal of bringing the promise of Scouting to your kids. You are not doing anything wrong. It is not your fault that the CO wants no part of Scouting, and likewise, its not your fault that your committee is not well staffed. Forge ahead, make your own decisions, if you run into a brick wall call your DE. But most of all, dont be dejected because an online personality tells you that 98% of Scout units have a stellar relationship with their CO, or, because that same personally tells you that virtually every unit across the USA has a fully staffed and active Committee, and you have neither! The reality of Scouting in the 21st century is that you may be in the majority.