Fishsqueezer

Trevorum

Maybe things are different in your neck of Texas, but I am proud to tell people I'm from Colorado. Here in the panhandle, the first response is usually "why did you move to Texas?" Maybe it has to do with proximity?

I am firmly in the camp that says slashing and burning, cutting and building, is a lot more about conserving the manly arts and man's proper relationship with his environment rather than doing our darndest to keep the TV Indian from crying.

They love their scout axes because it symbolizes their power to change their environment and to make something of use from nature. You folks are quick to criticize the moralizing of Christian faith, but get all high and mighty about cutting down trees.

So, caring about your home is bad. I think I understand you much better now. Tis a far, far better thing I do to be manly than to care about this world. If we cant use it then it has no value? Didnt God create and say it was good before man ever came on the scene?

I see a forest primarily as something to cut and fashion and explore and shape and make suitable for human use. I see a mountain as something to cut into for its stone, mine for its minerals and paint for its beauty.

I believe that that, in a nutshell, is your primary problem. You see no intrinsic value in anything yet God said it is good. Do you not value what God does?

The greatest lie ever perpetrated on our youth was the myth of the pristine environment. It never existed. It is not a scientifically verifiable state of existence. Nature is aggressive, opportunistic, and does not heed mans whims or emotions.

A pristine environment by definition is one that is unchanged by man. I do believe that existed. You might want to review Genesis and note that the world existed before man and therefore was pristine. There were also pristine continents prior to man migrating to them. You may wish to read more educational stuff when you have a moment between watching westerns and hanging out with real men.

The role of man is to create a Heaven on Earth. He is trying to perfect his conduct and to perfect his earthly condition.

And I thought we were here to be stewards of creation and worship God. Silly me, I didnt realize God didnt make it the way He liked and we are here to tidy up for Him and get it right.

Your bigotry to the capable man is showing. I never implied pollution-laying waste to the land, or anything else.

You assume that because I disagree with you that I am bigoted against a capable man? Does that not also lead to your assumption that I am not a capable man? What information do you have to back that up? Do you know what I have done or accomplished? Is it that you assume that I am incapable of all the things you describe? Your tactic of ascribing bigotry to me is the same that is often used by PC police when referencing those of opposing views.

I do believe there are many outdoor skills young men should learn. They should spend time outdoors learning about the environment and how to care for it. Caring for it means both using it wisely when needed and conserving when possible. Caring about nature and using it wisely are not the same as trying to put it in a bottle and preserve it.

By Pappys apparent definition, one is only a man if he is willing and able to cut, kill, and build. It makes one wonder; how did we ever get to the point of developing the technology for cities, or chainsaws, or guns without people that were girly thinkers? I would suspect that the majority of our technological and philosophical advances were accomplished by men who rarely, if ever, cleared a forest or killed something with their bare hands. Wouldnt a real man be caring enough to wash anothers feet. Wouldnt he have enough empathy toward others and their future to sacrifice himself for them? Did a real man change the world by building forts and playing war or was he a servant to others?

I have done many of the things Pappy ascribes to real men and will continue to do so. I hunt and fish and have trapped. I have cut trees and built shelters and trails. I guess that makes me manly. But then, I do recognize that there are inherent values is something existing even if I do not use it or ever see it so I guess that makes me girly. I suppose I fit the definition of a certain governor and will live forever as a girly-man.

Is the world really so black and white or zebra striped for us girly-men? Ask a forester if an old growth forest is the same as a young forest. They function differently both biologically and ecologically. Forests have different values to people and to ecosystems depending on their age and species composition. Pappy seems to see the forest as merely a bunch of trees. I happen to see a forest as part of the larger world. Would a Christian say God was just messing around when he made different types of forests and trees, or might he think there is a purpose behind the variety? I seem to recall that God created and said it is good. That would imply that He liked things the way He created them right? Creation was independently good even before there were utilitarian values derived by man. The earth is Gods creation. I would propose that man is but the office manager for creation. I do not believe that I know better than God. God says man is to have dominion over the earth but what is dominion? Dominion, by definition, is to have the right or power of governing or having control of. I have dominion over my office, yet it is owned by others. My dominion does not give me the right to do as I wish with the office. I must work within the framework that the owners designate. Do I assume I know what they want me to do or do I seek their input and guidance from information provided by the owners? One must come to the logical conclusion that the resources and environment of the earth are not ours in any sovereign or unlimited sense; they belong to someone else.

A parent has dominion over his children, but none would consider sacrificing a child for a better home or view. Because man has been given dominion over the earth, that does not mean he can act out of wholly selfish reasons. Does man have an obligation to care for creation? Does he have an obligation to care for future generations? According to the Bible, the earth is bestowed upon all humanity not a single generation that can use it up. We are using the inheritance of future generations and should do so wisely. When He settles the accounts of the talents, will we have invested wisely? The bounty of the earth is to provide for the needs and survival of all humanity. That could become a challenge if many parts are missing or are damaged beyond use. Dominion has a strong implication of stewardship. The earth is ours to use wisely and to pass on to future generations for their wise use.

There is a time and place for all these manly activities. National Forests are designated to be recreational lands and used as natural resources with timber harvesting, mining, grazing, and hunting allowed, but all should be done with the future in mind. By Pappys definition of manliness, it is manly to cause extinction because we needed that dam. It is manly to pollute the rivers and air because we needed the power. It is manly to cut old growth forests because those old trees make for stronger homes. If we harm creation it must be because God wanted us to. If He didnt want us to use it up, He wouldnt have given us power over it. That sounds very similar to the argument for slavery.

Henry David Thoreau railed at his forebears for their negligence in the natural world:

. . . Thinking that I have here the entire poem, to my chagrin I learn that it is but an imperfect copy that I possess and have read, that my ancestors have torn out many of the first leaves and grandest passages, and mutilated it in many places.

Romans 1:20 "Ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely, His eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made."

I had a Yamaha 250 Enduro way back in high school. When it was totalled I took a 20+ year break from bikes.

This past fall I got a 2007 Yamaha V-Star 1300 Tourer. Excellent bike and great ride. I can't wait until spring.

How about:

How are manure and lawyers alike?

Scattered around they can do a lot of good, but when you get a pile of them together it really stinks.

Thanks for the help. I didn't think about looking for a mending kit.

I have been checking all over the internet and scout sites and cannot find a source for replacement shirt buttons with the scout logo. My youngest son lost 4 buttons during a capture the flag game so the spares on the shirt tail were not enough. I was hoping not to have to rob his brothers and my shirts to fix it. Does everyone just use brown off-the-shelf buttons as replacements? Why wouldn't the scout supply shop carry regular buttons? They have Sea Scout buttons so why not standard buttons!

Trevorum

I've lived in Texas over 20 years now and I keep hearing that "Texas is the only state that was a country" line. I think the Hawaiians should be insulted that most people don't think their kingdom was a legitimate country. I believe they were a country longer than Texas ever was.

As for the name fishsqueezer, I'm a fisheries biologist and it is a term sometimes used in this profession to describe ourselves.

An update on the situation -

I had a long meeting with the boy and his guardian where we discussed the situation and its impact on the boy and on the other members of the troop. Most of the troop had already heard about the incident and were waiting to see what, if anything, would happen. He agreed that his actions were definitely not indicative of an SPL and that he should step down. He is committed to remain active in the troop and earn his Eagle and earn another POR. As far as I'm concerned the issue is closed and it will be up to him to re-establish his credibility with the troop. Thanks to everyone who provided input and advise.

I do tend to use my committee as a support team and try to rely on their experience and wisdom in certain situations. The training I've had led me to believe that was the appropriate approach.

I am the scoutmaster and I have talked with him and his guardian. The issue was brought to me by one of the committee members through their child. The CO rep will be at the meeting. The committee would like to discuss potential repercussions. This is not the first instance of behavior that has gotten him in trouble.

Excuse me for not indicating my position earlier. I posted here to seek advise, not a "damn the torpedoes" validation. A more measured response would have been appreciated.

We are having a committee meeting tonight to discuss our current SPL and meet with him. The situation is that he was caught sneaking alcohol on a school trip and has been suspended for 3 days and placed in alternative school for 30 days. I personally feel that he has not demonstrated leadership for the troop and should be removed from a leadership position. Informal discussions with other committee members leads me to believe they wish to remove him from SPL duties but give him some other leadership since he is working on his Eagle. This young man would make a great politician as he is very skilled at saying the right thing to deflect responsibility and avoid any direct discipline. Any suggestions or experiences with this sort of thing?

I've used it for a few years now on campouts and the ASM's get downright cranky if I bring anything else.

The book is excellent and should be read by all scout leaders. Some areas of the book drag a bit but the overall message is good. I felt like I was reading about my childhood and it reinforced what I'm trying to do for my own kids.

It amazes me how many people believe all science is only strictly fact based. If it isn't proven 100% then it can't be accepted as true. My 20+ years in science tends to work a bit different. Most scientists develop a working hypothesis based on existing data. As long as it holds in prediction power it is accepted by consensus until future research develops that either strengthens the hypothesis, alters it, or disproves it. Even the laws of physics aren't really laws when you get down to the extreme quantum physics. Truth will continue to be whether we learn to recognize it or not.

This is a copy of the adult ballot we used when selecting a patrol name. It also included some suggested yells and flags, etc.

Old goats Yell Daaaads aaaarrre greeaaat!

Old farts Yell Pull my finger and stand back

Rocking chair Yell - Back and forth, back and forth (done to a swaying motion)

Dunlops tire for a symbol?

The Empire Strikes Back Yell I am your father

Disco Ducks double knit neckerchiefs with mirrored slides? Yell Everyone blow a duck call

Toiletrees Yell rollin, rollin, rollin, keep that paper rollin.

Dinosaur Song the Barney Song. Yell Of courus, of courus, were pretendasaurus.

Barking spiders Yell The dog did it!

DRWSO (Dont Run With Sharp Objects) Yell Awe Mom!

Big Dogs Yell If you cant run with the big dogs, stay in the pup tent.

Sasquach blank patch since nobody has ever seen one! Yell You cant see me

THE patrol Yell THE, THE, THE. We are THE patrol.

Boomers Yell prairie chicken mating call

We ended up going with Big Dogs

Amen to the elephant Twocubdad. There are times I swear somebody is reassembling the elephant just when I think I am making progress. As new boys come in and older boys have gaps between leadership positions it becomes one giant step back. I keep hoping the older ones will hang on a bit longer, but after 16 or Eagle they become ghost scouts. They want to do the camps and not much else.

My "senior" leadership is usually 9th grade or younger. The cause-and-effect thought process is not ingrained in this age group. It is a constant battle for planning and training.

I too have been frustrated by a lack of follow-through or effort by our SPL. More often than not, school sports or band, etc. seem to be the priority after they are elected instead of the position. I try to emphasize that SPL is not just a title - there are duties involved.

A couple of things I am trying to improve meeting planning are very regular emails with the SPL. He sends out the meeting plans and updates on what he is working on. I encourage communication by having him cc the PLC so they know what is going on. They also get an idea of what is involved with the SPL position.

The other new thing I am trying this spring is meeting weekly with the SPL. Our CO has a wednesday evening meal each week where the SPL and any other PLC meet each week. It works great because we are at our regular meeting location, the boys get a free meal, it is public so no one-on-one, and we can have good discussions about projects since we have a lot of time.

We are still struggling with planning ahead, but I expect things will get better.

I would agree that common courtesy and manners are less common these days - especially on an anonymous internet. I believe the most recent Scouter magazine had an article about manners and how they are learned. If we practice them with each other, we are more likely to practice them with the boys.

SCREAMING AT PEOPLE never convinces them, it just makes them defensive.

Just my opinion.

I'm not a lawyer, but both Mustang and Impala were in the public domain and common usage long before there was Ford and Chevy. The names became trademarkable when the company claimed them and associated them with their product.

Scouts was in common usage before there was BSA. It became trademarkable when BSA claimed the term and associated it with its product/organization.

(This message has been edited by Fishsqueezer)

Its Me

What did you expect with that question on this site? The people that frequent this site all have one thing in common - we love scouting and we recognize the benefits. You seem to be a bright fellow so I suspect you already knew that when you posted. If you were looking for encouragement to hang in there, then you have received many good posts. If you are looking for a reason to quit, then I suppose you will find that too. When you cut through all the other stuff in your posts and boil it all down and consider the people you are talking to, what did you really want these folks to tell you? When you can clearly state that, then you will get your answer.

I've been a fisheries biologist for TX Parks & Wildlife for 20 years - living the outdoor dream - except when I'm typing reports, answering the phone, giving presentations, attending meetings, entering and analyzing data.....

We have been doing this for years with quite a bit of success. We create a call list within the troop of those that are interested in jobs. We require that the parent participate in the job with the boy for a safety feature or that the parent make arrangements with the other parents if it is a multi-boy job. Essentially the hiring individual gets 2 for 1 with a boy and a parent. We do not have set prices - it is done for a donation of any amount the individual wishes for the job. Some pay extremely well, others poorly. One problem we have is with getting boys to work. They sign up and say they want to do the jobs but are never available when called. We end up with a few families doing all the jobs. Most of the work is seasonal and a lot of people want the job done "right now". The process we go through is as follows:

Designate contact person and advertise service

Public calls contact and describes needs

Contact calls boys on list to find one that can do the job

Contact provides boy with public's contact information

Boy contacts public and sets up work date and time

Boy brings donation to troop treasurer to deposit in scout account

This needs to be regularly advertised. Our local paper donates some column space whenever they have it. We also post it in parent's businesses and churches.

Progression of some people's reasoning.

There is a strong weather front approaching my area but I don't need to worry about that since it probably won't come here.

The barometric pressure is changing rapidly but that only effects people with inner ear problems or sinus problems, that is not me.

There are strong thunderstorms in the area but I'm not worried because I live in a good house. It will only impact those that did not build as stong as I did.

Doppler radar indicates rotation in the clouds but that doesn't prove there is a tornado - I haven't seen one yet.

I hear a tornado siren but that is just those bureaucrat weather forcasters looking for danger to protect thier jobs.

Look it's a tornado, oops.