firstpusk

Weekender, One more thing on Intelligent Design. The American Academy for the Advancement of Science passed a resolution on Oct. 18 that opposed it being taught as science. The resolution can be found at this link, http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml It is quite clear that they hold the "theory" in complete disdain. I also think they are a bit more qualified than Colson to speak to the question.

Weekender, The point is simple and straightforward. Intelligent Design is religion. There is no scientific theory basis for intelligent design. Your personal religious beliefs are what cause both you and Colson to embrace this theory. There is no scientific evidence for creationism or intelligent design. A lot of folks may claim that, but it simply is not true. If you believe in it, that is fine with me. If you want to teach your children that, do it at home or in church. But dont teach my children your religion in their science class. You read far too much into the theory of evolution. It is not man's way of justifying his own irresponsible behavior. It is only the scientific explanation for the development of diversity of life on earth. It makes no statements about God or morality. Some use it to justify stupid and cruel behavior, just as religion has been used. The stupid and cruel behavior of humans refutes neither religion nor evolution. Aside to littlebillie, there is a God and we are animals. I did like your summation besides the aside ;^)

maddoro, As a scoutmaster, I know how important these letters are. I understand that it is embarassing to ask the person for another letter. It is not you or your son's fault. Why not ask the scoutmaster at the new troop to handle the duty. If he is willing, he could put in a personal call explaining the situation. I know that I once had to ask a person to send a second letter. I am still mystified by what happened to it. I was embarrassed and profusely apologetic. The person was quite gracious and I am sure thought I was off my rocker (necessary qualification for a scoutmaster). The council is aware of the situation. The DC should know about him, too. Any scouter that would threaten to bad mouth a boy because of his poor performance is someone we could use to replace.

"This is why, in every school, we must do everything we can to see that evolution is taught as a theorythe good parts of evolution and the parts that discredit itand that alternative theories, like intelligent design, be taught as well." Colson misrepresents the situation to benefit not an alternative scientific theory but a leagal and political strategy to teach religion as science. Intelligent design is in no way scientific and should never be taught as science.

"Oh, yeh. since you like the Egyptian science stuff, are you into dung beetles and that kind of stuff too? are their beliefs about them true also?" Thanks for raising the level and quality of the debate. Dung beetles are interesting and so are the theological ideas that the Egyptians had about them. Their concepts, however, have no scientific validity. Neither does the first few chapters of Genesis. I don't need to scream that life evolved, the evidence does that for me. You seem intent on deciding what someone must believe if they don't agree with you. I never said that Genesis was not inspired or did not express truth. It simply is not a text that can be said to be an acurate natural history. The intent of the author is not scientific. I will agree that Job is a beautiful and poetic expression of faith. The oldest text from the ancient near east? Can't buy that one. Even granting the Book of Job an age on the old side, say 700 BC, that can in no way compare with stella from say the first dynasty in Egypt to around 3000 BC.

"Personally, I would prefer BSA to exclude Pagan religions and the like ("The Force" or some other kind of nonsense). I'm probably in the minority. So those of you who disagree and can feel good - knowing that BSA will probably continue to accept those kinds of religions." A scout is reverent means we respect the beliefs of others. I am willing to accept that others may have beliefs I might consider unconventional. If their belief is sincere, I think it is a violation of that point of the law to refer to that belief as nonsense.

"If man evolved, then there is no afterlife..." False dichotomy. Evolution does not speak to religion, the supernatural or God. It does not exclude God. It simply does not address God in any way.

"here's an interesting thought: until 1492, mankind thought that the earth was flat and nothing was under it." Actually, that is a myth. The Greeks and Egyptians both proved that the earth was round before the time of Christ. Another creationist claimed this back in August. I also gave him this link. Seek and ye shall find. http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/flat_earth.htm "however, several thousand years ago, a man named Job said that God formed the earth and hung it on nothing (26:7). In fact, in the next verse, he even told us that the waters are bound up in clouds..... is that scientific?" No, this is certainly poetic and quite beautiful but not scientific. It is the method that makes it scientific.

As a member of the Minnesota Canoe Association, I assure you that it is not that uncommon for a canoe to be in a high school swimming pool. We do it all the time for practicing rolls during the winter months. A canoe is the easiest to get in and out through narrow doors. Some pools actually have wide enough doors for a row boat but the weight is excessive. Ask the authorities for permission, explaining exactly why you need a boat in the pool. Make sure the boat is well cleaned and rinsed before you bring it in. Because of the inherent instability of a canoe, use a well qualified paddler and stay away from the edges of the pool. A very effective and memorable rescue demonstration can be carried out. As a scouter that has been trained in Lifegaurd BSA a number of times, it is important for us to understand that attempting a swimming rescue is a dangerous and difficult endeavor. I agree with the comments of others that it is not something that we want to encourage Cub Scouts to attempt.

slontwovvy, I don't have personal experience, but a troop I used to be associated with had a crew go there. I think I could get you an email address and you could ask them your questions. Feel free to send me a private message. I have seen both of the leaders in the last few weeks. I am sure they would be willing to help you.

eagle90 Using the local boys in Ely or any other town is greatly appreciated by the folks up there. One thing I might suggest to anyone looking to use the BWCA is don't just look at Ely or the Gunflint. There are some great trips that a bit more off the beaten path. Northern Minnesota has some other trips outside of the BWCA that are really great. If you are going to Ely you might want to check out the Soudan Underground Mine State Park. The North Shore of Lake Superior is beautiful.

"In fact, the Bible tells us, I believe it's in Proverbs, that God's ways are not our ways. We ought not think we can comprehend everything he does or why he does it." Issaiah 55:8

Rooster7, You gave me three points. The first two misrepresent what I say. I did not say bans=chauvinism. I said my experience showed it to be a danger. Second, I did not say the CO may have a problem but that unless the CO had a clear policy any unit that adopted a ban might be on shaky ground. Finally, on the issue of leadership. I have been the SM. I was not elected by the boys but chosen by the charter. The SA's I had were also chosen at my recommendation. A troop can run their unit the way they please. If I have a woman on my staff, the boys don't choose whether she goes or not. They are free to choose not to come and they are free to choose to talk with me about specific issues with that leader. I am sure you are proud of your son. Seems like a great kid. However, if he is going to come out and play, let him answer for himself. Afterall aren't we discussing giving the boys choices?

I didn't say all male campouts meant chauvinism. I said I saw it in all three of the troops I was most intimately involved with. My point is that we have a responsibility to provide a moral compass to the boys in the troop. If we as leaders simply accept the "will of the boys" without examining what is behind the feeling, we abdicate our moral responsibility.

Yes. It goes into effect Jan 1 and requires tour permits to have at least one person currently certified in YP listed. This was discussed awhile back on the Open Discussion - Program part of the forum. Try this link. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=17369

"1. Canoe trip BWCA 2. Hike in Isle Royale" Some of my friends who have done both suggest that instead of the hike on Isle Royale, consider kayaking around it. They say the best campsites are kayak accessible. I have not been to Isle Royale, but I sure am partial to paddling. Where are you looking to put in for the BWCA trip?

"...and a troop that excludes females IS ALSO within its rights." One that excludes in the manner I am talking about may not be on the firmest ground. If the chartering org has no policy disqualifying female leaders, a troop that bans female leaders or other female adult participation may expose itself to legal issues. I am not favoring such an approach on any level. My advice to the women involved was to talk with the charter about it. They chose not to make waves. One came to my troop as an SA. One was recruited for council level work on religious emblems. My experience with female bans has shown me three troops that pass a sexist message on to the boys. I have seen the results stick with them into young adulthood.

Of course I didn't convince you. You already told me, "If the boys wish it and the troop has the male leadership than there is no way you can convince me that it is wrong." These aren't stories. These are experiences I have shared with my female comrades. It is not one troop it was three. And according to the story I heard, the tradition was started by the boys at least one of these troops soon after female leaders were included. Whether this is true, I don't know. I do know that keeping the tradition going in all three troops was important to the leadership. It persists to this day. I am sorry that you can't be convinced. That is because I spent a lot of time with these women to encourage their continued participation. Their treatment was personally embarassing for them and their families. You want to gloss over the ugliness here. That is your choice.

YoungBlood, There are a lot of things if put to a vote of the boys they might choose. Who their scoutmaster is should not be one of them. If they can vote no ladies, perhaps the scouts are tired of Joey's snoring or the older boys don't want any first years at camp. Their are a few circumstances that I will agree justify this kind of policy, i.e., specific religious doctrines of the charter. You say you don't have to answer because Rooster7 already has for you. I disagree, we all have to answer for the kind of policy that Webelosmom is talking about. I have been a scoutmaster and a trainer of scoutmasters for more than a decade. I know of six troops in my former district that had no female leadership (field). Three were LDS, so the caveat I sighted above applies. The other three drove away a number of excellent female scouters. I was able to salvage a few after I figured out what was going on. The more insidious outcome was with the boys. A number of them ended up working with me on council and district staff positions. It became clear that these troops were producing scouts that did not respect female leadership or other female staffers. The first aim is foster moral and character development. In this respect, these troops fail the boys, the society and the scouting movement. I am saying that if you go down this path, it should be done with a lot of soul searching and introspection. You guys talk hypothetically. I am talking about my experience over a number of years with troops that had such "policies" in place. No one discussed the policy (if they knew what was good for them). The policy was not documented nor was their any vote of the boys, although I heard rumors to that effect. Instead, it was clearly the decision of the good old boys. This misogynist attitude was passed on to some of the scouts I worked with later. You said, "If the boys wish it and the troop has the male leadership than there is no way you can convince me that it is wrong." Read what you said again and think about it hard.

You are talking about the Hunter's bend. It hit the press in the 60's I believe. Later it was discovered that it had been used by others before. But for the life of me, I can't remember now. It is a pretty dependable bend. One caution, not all of the diagrams I have seen are accurate. When in doubt, consult your Ashley Book of Knots.(This message has been edited by firstpusk)

YoungBlood, In order for any troop to go out, they require mature adult leadership. I have been tour leader a number of high adventure outings. Some have been all male, some have had women leaders along. The leaders I choose to come with are asked based on what they offer the group. On another thread, I mentioned the leaders we have in our troop with some first aid or medical training. The bulk of those people are women. I also have another woman who is a lifeguard and a lifeguard instructor. No scout in my troop would have the temerity to put "Mrs. Johnson's" participation in the white water canoe trip to a vote of the scouts. They know that I would ask their father to hire comparible expertise. My scouts understand that issues with adult leaders are to be dealt with by the adult leadership. Any issue you have raised can be dealt with by the proper training of adult leadership and parents. As someone who works intimately with volunteer issues at the district and council levels, I feel such an attitude throws away a significant percentage of our recruiting base. If we want to deliver the promise, we can not afford the attitude you are defending.

Among the most important skills a scout learns are the first aid requirements. Adult leaders should be good models for the boys. Carrying certifications are an important way to express this commitment. My troop pays for the CPR certification of all scoutmasters. In addition we have two wilderness first aid, a first responder, three, no four nurses and a physician's assistant. Not all of these folks are scoutmasters but we heartily encourage their attendance on campouts. These resources are especially critical in wilderness situations where response time is significantly delayed.

Rooster7, If you can get him to cook some of your famous blue crab...Well, that would would be pretty close to heaven in my book!

Time to "kick it up another notch!"

littlebillie, turkey is a great consideration in these situations. I am not sure that turkey chilli would be my first choice. The combinationof beans and Tryptophan from the turkey could make the campfire scene from Blazing Saddles look pretty tame.