firecrafter

Thank you all for your replies! Some great points made & a lot to consider. I am printing some things off for our group to read. Some have asked about parental involvement in our group. For a variety of reasons we seem to have a large number of boys with no father in the picture. They have no male role model whatsoever. Several are being raised by grandmothers, several have fathers who are deceased, and many live in single parent homes with only the mother. Those boys make up about 70% of our troop. I feel like that is a great opportunity for us to be a positive influence for these guys! We have 19 adult leaders on our roster, with about 5 who are active (as far as being physically present for meetings/outings). The SM typically goes on all outings with perhaps one or two ASMs There are about 30 scouts on the roster at this time, with 10 new scouts being added in the next few weeks (just had crossovers). We are a boy led troop with emphasis on character. The SMs attitude is "have fun, be safe, learn a little something in the process". I would like nothing better than to see another troop start up in the area. We can suggest that, and give suggestions and guidance, but sadly most parents seem to want someone else to do the work. We get a lot of parents who drop & run. I like the idea of one parent/guardian from each family signing up to do SOMETHING. Our committee shot that down as "unfair". Honestly, we can't even get parents to drive scouts to outings! Yet when it comes time for committee meetings they all fuss & tell the few who are active how they want things done. Tell me what's "fair" about that? Our SM gives up a week, unpaid, to take the boys to camp every summer. We have ASMs who have three weeks paid vacation time who won't give up time to go! We routinely hear "I have something to do" on weekends when the boys camp. There are 3 dads who go, including the SM. My idea is that the boys who have a parent going/driving go. After that, first come, first serve until you run out of seats in the vans/cars. Again, we hear "not fair". My idea for limiting new scouts was to figure out what we can reasonably handle, then take boys on a first come first serve basis, adding names to a waiting list if we had to. I know it's not a perfect solution, but maybe it would convince parents to participate. Personally, I don't want my boys in a troop where there is not enough adult supervision and safety becomes an issue. They don't need chaos. Been there, done that. I do think the committee is finally getting the idea that it's the SM who runs the program! Progress! I suppose the CO/CC/SM will ultimately decide the numbers issue. Sure wish we could avoid all the squabbling in committee though! I can dream can't I? Again, thanks for your replies! firecrafter

It seems that the other two troops in our town have bitten the proverbial dust. They did not recharter this year. One, the oldest troop in town, has been going downhill for years. It was expected. The other, a very vital, but church focused group, has decided not to continue. At our troop's committee meeting we were discussing the possiblity of setting limits on the number of new scouts we would be able to accept, since we are now "the only game in town". The time may come when we realistically do not have enough reliable adult help to add large numbers to the troop. Key word, RELIABLE. It has always been the policy in this troop, not to accept "warm bodies" as leaders. I, for one, have no problem with the idea of limiting the number of new scouts to what we can handle with the help available. Of course as we add leaders we can add more Scouts. Other parents acted like the idea of setting limits was outrageous. It seems pretty crappy to me to expect the SM & ASM's to stretch themselves beyond what they can humanly do... tell them how many boys they will accept into the program, how much time they will give up, and how the program should be run, yet there are always those parents/leaders who do just that. We have some good men leading, I don't want to burn our them out. It was Abe Lincoln who said "Those who have a heart to help, have the right to criticize". I couldn't agree more. I'm wondering if anyone has had experiences with setting limits on troop size, either bad or good. Thanks! firecrafter That should read "Setting Limits"... lol(This message has been edited by firecrafter)

Can someone tell me who typically keeps copies of completed Scout applications and/or adult leader applications in a unit? Who keeps these records in your unit? Thanks. fircrafter

Our Eagle candidates first meet with the SM, then the head of the organization he is serving with his project. He then meets with the entire Committee. This is done to be sure all bases are covered and that the Scout has a good shot at passing at the district level. It's not to make the Scout jump through hoops, but as help to the Scout. Next the Scout speaks to the District Advancement Chairman. When the project is complete, signatures procured, he has a BOR. After the BOR, led by the DAC, it goes on to National.

Great post! I really enjoyed reading all the ideas and hearing what these Scouts have accomplished! I'd love to see our guys try this on their own sometime. Very encouraging! firecrafter

scout-parent, I hate hearing about a situation like this and wish you the best in resolving it. Two things came to mind as I was reading through your longer post on 12/7. First, if you son is addressing the committee in a letter, the letter should be presented to the CC beforehand and a discussion of said letter placed on the meeting agenda. It sounds as if your son has gone about things the right way thus far, and putting his concerns on the agenda, perhaps asking for a chance to speak at the meeting, will show respet and courtesy for the members. Don't try blindsiding the committee, it will backfire. I speak from experience. The second thing, since the COR has retired (and not been replaced), perhaps involving the Institution Head of your Charter Organization would be preferable to the CC/COR who may be biased. I must agree with SemperParatus who said not to expect much involvement from District/Council in this matter. They will mostly tell everyone to place nice and leave you to your own solutions. If the CO & CC are happy with the way SM does things, you are in a lose/lose situation. The SM is the person in charge of implementing the BSA program, and with the CO backing him, SM holds all the cards. Personally if I was that unhappy with SM's leadership, I would want my son to relocate to another unit where he could learn the values of Scouting from someone I felt had a true understanding of them. There are all kind of SM's, all kind of Troops. Find one that your son and yourself feel comfortable in.

First, I'm not going anywhere. I'm sticking with this Troop and supporting the SM in his efforts to get things back on track. The BOR issues just came to his attention recently and he is working with the Advancement Chairman to educate him and other committee members. The MBC suprised us all by her actions! She was a founding member of the troop. Thankfully she has decided to retire from Scouting recently. I am a MBC myself and fully understand that requirements cannot be added to or changed. Getting everyone else up to speed is the issue. Most of our committe needs to find out how things are done in BSA. Those of us who have taken time to get educated & trained are trying to encourage them to do the same. I was asked by the CC to share how the Charter/Troop/Committee is structured. Some seemed pretty shocked to learn how things are done. They seem to want to fly by the seat of their pants. I keep saying that it's not BSA if we do that. We did bring in the UC, during the aforementioned 4 hour meeting. He mostly just told everyone to "play nice". When the UC goes home, the parents are right back to old behaviors. Someone mentioned hidden agendas... boy do we have one. The ASM wants his son to have Eagle in a big way. The son is a continual behavior problem (don't get me started). ASM even threatened to "run against" the current SM right before rechartering this year (because SM refused to appoint the boy as troop guide). The SM isn't going anywhere soon. The Charter is happy with him. The CC is happy with him. I'm not so sure the ASM will be rechartered this year though. In all seriousness, this IS a good troop. It has experienced the fasted growth in our district and has a great reputation. Some of these problems are just growing pains and much was caused by our renegade ASM. We are slowly weeding through some things. I'm not ready to give up. Firecrafter

Our troop has resently had two BOR's that went horribly wrong. The first: Scout phones SM to ask for a conference. SM returns call two days later, leaves message. No response from Scout. At weekly meeting finds out Scout has already had SM conference with ASM (yes "that" ASM). In our troop only the SM does the Soutmaster conference unless it is his own son. BOR is set up with people who aren't typically called for BOR, but who are sympathetic to Scout & his past behavior problems. He passes the BOR but is encouraged to write a two page letter describing his disatisfaction with the troop, program, leaders, and fellow Scouts. His letter is presented by the Avancement Chairman to the TC. The SM & CC are blindsided, having no prior knowledge of the letter or it's contents. As a CM I got a copy. It sounded disrespectful, ungrateful, and not factual in the least. SM investigated any claim he made involving Scouts, by interviewing Scouts And their parents. Turned out they were all untrue. CC set up a meeting with the letterwriting Scout, his Dad & various other leaders. Scout's Dad says these were not the Scout's concerns, but that the letter was "dragged" out of him by the BOR group. At Committee meeting the adults who did the dragging defended their actions. Committee doen't think the Scout, nearly 16 years old and a Star Scout, should be reprimanded for making false accusations against fellow Scouts. Sadly this Scout has been dragged into more than letter writing. He is being fed a lot of misinformation from the troop malcontent("that" ASM). OK, Second Scout. Just turned 16, is now a Life Scout. One of the best Scouts we have ever seen in our troop. Has served as SPL for 1 1/2 years (combined), and done an excellent job. Has a great attitude, is helpful, good with younger Scouts, etc. He went in for his Life BOR. He was asked, "Would you wear your Scout uniform to school proudly". His answer was that he prefers not to because of teasing from other students, but that he has on occassion worn it to school. Another was "What took you so long to reach Life Scout? and "Are you going to take so long to reach Eagle?" (HELLO! He's been SPL for most of the last few years!) The real topper was this... He had completed the "Citizenship in the World" MB, prior to his BOR with one of it's members. He had a signed completed blue card from her. She had asked him to do an extra report on current events that was not required for the MB, because "she felt it was important that he know about current events". He agreed to turn in the report. As he was leaving two days after his BOR for National Jamboree he had not yet turned it in. (I might add that he was chosen as the SPL for our distric group.)Anyway, because he had not turned in a report that was NOT REQUIRED, this woman refused to sign off on the BOR. The Advancement Chairman tried reasoning with her but she wouldn't budge. Things were said (by her) about his not keeping his word and his integrity. The Scout was denied his advancement. At that point the Sout did lose his cool, but only slighty, asking the board "Are you saying I am not a good Scout?" He emailed the report to the board member the next day, she signed off... but since that time the Scout refuses to return to meetings. His parents said he was so disraught at the way he was treated, that he actually cried on the ride home. Our SM is still working this one out. The poor guy, I can't imagine spending so much time cleaning up after committee members. At meetings the CM's continue to defend their actions even when the SM or CC tell them otherwise. Maybe this should be under the "why leaders quit" post. firecrafter

Our troop has done "service projects" on meeting nights in the past. We have gone door to door collecting food for our charter's food pantry. We also go Christmas caroling to the local nursing home & shut ins every year. Both the PLC's idea. I don't see the cookie dough as service. firecrafter

Let me encourage you not to give up on Scouting! My oldest son is a professional musician. I don't know anyone who loves music more than he does! When he was 17 he began touring the US full time with his band. He also finished up his Eagle Scout project and made Eagle Rank in the 6 months before his 18th birthday. His years of Scouting taught him a lot of things. He can pack the equpiment trailer like no one else, sleep anywhere, is organized, and most importantly, is at ease talking with people everywhere! He is now 19, and still tours most of the year, but serves the troop as an ASM when he is in the area! While in Scouting he earned the music merit badge, played for churches and college worship teams (great for service hours!) and taught music lessons. He also gave a number of skills instructions to the younger Scouts showing how instruments work, amplification etc. There are many ways you can work your interests into Scouting! Sounds like you are taking on a lot, but many of the best Scouts do. Just remember you don't have to do everything. Pace yourself, organize you time and remember to have some fun too! I wish you luck! Music is a wonderful gift! Firecrafter

My oldest son is a professional musician with tri color hair and and a ring in his nose... and an Eagle Scout. Oh yeah, and one of the best Assistant Scoutmasters we've ever had! You should see HIM in uniform! LOL

We have two special needs Scouts in our troop. They have participated in nearly all activities and campouts since joining. Scout #1, the mother signed up, telling us he was "slow" but giving no real information on exactly what his limitations are. The second Scout was signed up by an ASM without ever meeting a parent. After discipline problems arose we were told that Scout #2 is "special ed" by the person he rides to meetings with. Neither Scout lists any limitations or medication on their medical forms. Neither Scout has a father in the picture. Both mothers have told us they "don't have time" to help their son with scouting. Which is most likely true. Now granted, these boys probably need the program worse than most... but where do you draw the line? We are after all, as someone else stated, volunteers. The first Scout was recently not allowed to go on a very challenging backpacking trip because it was judged that he was ill equipped. He asked the instructor during a prep meeting, "will we be walking?", which gives you an idea of his understanding. When details were explained to his Mother, she was very agreeable to his not going. However other parents & leaders think it is unfair to restrict these boys in any way. Guess which adults were not going on the trip? Interestingly enough, the ones who are the most vocal are totally unwilling to camp or help with activities. I can't imagine telling the SM he has to accommodate all boys, but expecting the responsibility for their care to fall only on him. He is one person! We have recently had trouble with a renagade ASM signing in place of the SM on various paperwork, including Scout applications. The SM would have had the opportunity to address the issues with the mothers of these boys, had he reviewed & signed their applications, as is customary. As it is, neither mom "has time" to come in for a chat after the fact. In our troop 3/4 of the Scouts are not living with a father. Several have no mother in the picture. I know, sadly this is our world today... Most parents want to drop their boy off and only come around if there is a problem. It's very difficult to find good leaders who will commit. I would like to think in a perfect Scout world that there is time, personel, and energy to deal with the myriad of issues that are dumped on the meeting place doorstep. But the reality is that the SM and other leaders are their to make the experience a good one for the entire troop. When I hear a story like SMT376 from KY tells, it makes me want to pick up & go home. Many times we ARE called on to do what the family is unwilling to do. Most scout leaders that I have seen are ill equipped to help these Scouts or their families beyond basics. Many leaders are just downright unwilling. And as one person above noted, we only have them 1 1/2 hours a week. Now, before everyone sends hate mail... I am not saying that we should not allow these special needs Scouts to participate. But our leaders have been told time and again that they CANNOT limit any boy's participation. They have been told that if an activity isn't appropriate for all-no one goes. To me that just isn't good sense. You have to be able to make a judgement about the safety and well being of ALL Scouts in the Troop. I get tired of the do-gooders in the group dumping the responsibilty on the few good leaders we have mananged to keep around. Don't they realize that these good men will soon burn out without support and assistance from the rest? How much do you realistically ask a volunteer to do? Just being totally honest here. OK, I'm ready to take my lashes... firecrafter

Interestingly enough, the ASM admitted to giving permission to this young man to smoke at Scout functions and on campouts. After setting things straight, we haven't seen the new Scout since. This particular ASM has shown poor judgement in so many areas, it's hard to get an honest answer out of him as to why he does anything. firecrafter

Very interesting discussion. Sures gives us all a lot to consider. In our Troop any Scout can run for SPL. He first expresses his interest to the SM and is usually approved to run, barring any glaring behavior problems. He then gives an election speech to his Troop, and the Scouts choose from among several candidates. We tried setting criteria for the different offices but soon found that setting arbitrary rules did not necessarily guarantee a better outcome. It sounded great in theory but did not work well in practice. Out PLC asked to institute an evaluation of the Scouts after each term, but the Committee nixed the idea. A few parents thought it was unfair to allow Scouts to do the evaluation. I thought it was a great idea, considering we had Scouts who were virtually "no Shows" through their entire term and still received credit as if they had done the job. I think we underestimate the Scouts. They aren't stupid. They know which of their fellow Scouts work beside them, lead by example & treat them with respect. In my experience those are the boys they choose as SPL & PLs. firecrafter

The Troop has been having some difficulty recently and the SM has asked for support from the CC & other leaders. The CC is in agreement with the SM, but refuses to make a difficult call. The other Leaders tell the SM it's his call, but when he mentions asking the CO for support they seem to panic. They do not want the CO involved. In a perfect Scout world I imagine the CC & Committe having a better relationship with the CO. firecrafter

Hunt, We have a great outing this month but he has already missed the deadline for that. Next month is a back to basics outing. I guess I'm asking on a practical level what to "do" with him. Do we put him in a patrol with much younger Scouts? Obviously tenting with them is not acceptable. I am thinking he may be pretty miserable sitting in meetings with no real job to do and 14 year olds leading him. I understand we don't really have to do anything, but wouldn't it be best to make his two months as painless as possible? firecrafter

Hunt, The church does have several other youth programs, a Jr. high & HS program, kids choir, youth band. In addition they host both Cub Scout and Girl Scout groups, but do not charter those groups. The IH has said his reason for chartering a BSA unit is that he believes BSA has maintained it's integrity over the years. We welcome boys from the church as well as those from the community to join our unit. I would say about 25% of the Scouts & there families attend the church. The SM has always met informally but on a regular basis with the COR & IH to keep them informed. We regularly help with the Charter's food pantry and do various service projects as needed. SM pretty much handles all dealings with the CO and reports back to the CC & Committee. firecrafter

FScouter, The UC has a son in our unit. He has been at all committee meetings since I can remember. He's a good guy. We were in the process of registering him for committee when we found out he was our UC. The Local Council appoints a UC for each unit. Council gave us two names before his, neither were correct. This man was not even aware that he was our UC until recently! He was UC for other troops in the past, not sure about now. I do think our UC is doing his job. My understanding is that his role is to explain Scout policy & mediate. I do disagree with him on the CO being uninvolved. Otherwise, no problem. At this point, I'm not saying we should say "no" to this young man. But perhaps an introduction and short talk with the SM beforehand would have let him know what he was getting into. He would have at least understood the no smoking policy. And the question remains... what do we do with him now that he is there? Any thoughts would be appreciated. firecrafter

Thanks to everyone who replied! In our case the CO is a church. The Troop generally handles day to day activities with the SM giving an informal report to the IH every few months. The SM, along with two parents/committee member, are the only ones who maintain a relationship with the IH and COR. The CC feels the CO is best left out of the loop. He has expressed the fear that "we will lose control of the Unit" by involving the CO too much. He is a good man, but in that area I disagree. The UC is not really interested in having the CO's imput, and feels we should handle things on our own. I am of the mindset that as part of their youth program, we rather owe it to the CO to keep them informed. I have suggested providing the CO with more Scout material and also committee's minutes. Few like this idea. What are they afraid of? firecrafter NJCubScouter said a mouthful! And ain't it the truth!? "As for how the relationship is handled in other units, based on what I have seen and also on what I have read in this forum, I'd say it is handled in as many different ways as you can possibly think of, from a direct and perfect symbiotic relationship, through the many and varied kinds of good and/or acceptable relationships that may or may not go "exactly by the book," all the way over to various dysfunctional relationships, feuding, the occasional lawsuit etc. etc. It's all part of the incredible diversity of mankind's ability to get along, or not get along, with each other."

The SM has met with the ASM to discuss the issues many times. He called in the CC and the UC on the new Scout/smoking issue. The bottom line is that both agree with the SM in private, but are unwilling to publicly make the hard calls. The ASM admitted that he allows this young man to smoke on Venture outings, a separate unit from ours. He also told SM that he informed the Scout he was allowed to smoke as long as he was away from other Scouts. ASM was set straight on that. The UC and CC advised the SM that now that the Scout is registered he is SM's problem, "his call". The SM is left with several difficulties. First, a SM conference with a near man, to explain what BSA is about. This is something that typically happens BEFORE a Scout joins, and would have, had the SM been made aware of the young man's interest. Next, there are practical matters. In a Troop made up of Scouts mostly between the ages of 11-14 what do you do with a Scout that has no experience but is nearly 18. Normally at his age he would be leading. You can't put him in the new Scout patrol with 11 year olds. Will he accept the leadership of Scouts much younger than himself? How does a smoker go an entire weekend without a cigarette while camping? How does the SM explain this young man to concerned parents? I see many areas of potential conflict. The CC and the UC also refuse to make a call on the matter of this ASM. Because of past abuses the CO has already considered asking him to step down. The UC and CC seem to want the CO kept out of it at all costs. The SM feels that our Troop reflects the reputation of the CO, as well as his own. He maintains a good relationship with the COR and the IH. The SM is a good man. I believe he will make those hard calls. I know the CO and the IH supports him and will stand with him. I will support the SM too, but I am a "nobody" in the group. It has been discouraging, to say the least, to watch the other leaders seem to pay lip service to Scout principles but refuse to share responsibility for making decisions. I feel for the SM. Thanks for reading! firecrafter

I'd like your thoughts on this... My understanding is that individual BSA Troops operate as part of their CO's youth program. It seems to me that developing & maintaining a good relationship with the COR and IH is an important part of that. In our Troop some of the leaders seem to want the CO kept out of the loop. They see involving the CO or Unit Commissioner as something to be avoided at all costs. I have a great relationship with our CO, COR, IH and UC. Although we do handle most things within the unit, as long as things are done in an honest and straightforward way there shouldn't be a problem involving the CO or UC. Am I correct in my understanding that we as a Troop/Leaders serve at the pleasure of our CO and as such should keep them informed? I'm wondering how other units handle the Troop/CO partnership? Thanks. firecrafter

I'd sure like to hear your thoughts on our situation... One of our ASM has been causing problems in the Troop for sometime. Things have recently come to a full boil. The ASM showed up at a meeting with a young man who he introduced to everyone as "our newest Scout". The SM had not met the young man or his parent(s), nor signed a Scout application. The ASM submitted his application to council without saying a word to anyone (ASM signature where the SM normally signs). This new Scout will be turning 18 in just 2 months. He is a giant hulk of a boy/man with a full beard! He has been at two Scout activities, and was seen smoking in clear view of the adults and Scouts at both. SM saw him and also several Scouts brought it to the SM's attention. No one can figure out why this young man with no previous Scout experience would join a Troop this late in the game. What say you in this instance? Thanks! firecrafter

Hello, I am new to these forums but not to Scouting. I stumbled in while looking for Scout information online. Seems to be a great group with a lot of experience & knowledge. Looking forward to exchanging ideas. firecrafter