fgoodwin

ScoutersMom, welcome to the Forums. Based just on what you've written here, its hard to know why "another leader from another pack" would think you may be out of compliance with Cub camping requirements. Its usually best to go right back to the source (i.e., the Scouter who raised the question) and ask them to show you in black and white why they think you might be out of compliance. The best we can do is guess at her reasoning; but only she can answer that. Once she gives you her answer, we can certainly opine as to whether or not we agree with her. But short of an answer from her, we are just speculating.

I know I've posted this before, but one of my pet peeves is when person A tells person B something, then B goes to person C (manytimes C is this Forum) and asks "A told me such-and-so; is he (or she) right?" Its not our job to prove A right or wrong -- if A puts forth a position, then its up to A to prove it. I've been chided when bringing this up as not being responsive to B's question. Suppose A makes a claim for something that doesn't exist, then no amount of googling by C (i.e., us) will ever find it. When do you give up looking for something that doesn't exist, but you don't know it doesn't exist? That's why I always direct B to go back to A and make A prove their case. Also: sometimes A claims something that has no official support, or in some cases, may be flat out wrong. There are infinite ways to do something wrong, but only one (or at most, a few) way to do it right. BSA handbooks and policies tell us what we can do, but with few exceptions, rarely tell us what we cannot do -- there's an infinite number of things we cannot do, so we should stick to those things that BSA tells us we can do. So when A says "BSA has no written prohibition on doing XYZ" I tell them, "you've got it backwards -- show me where BSA says you CAN do XYZ?" OK, off my soapbox for now . . .

What a tragic loss. I will indeed keep them in my prayers.

John, sadly I won't be at PTC this summer. I have one week scheduled for family vacation and another to be a camp commissioner at our council's summer camp -- I doubt if my boss would let me take a third! Enjoy your week.

John -- my apologies. I see now you were replying to GernB not me.

John, were you responding to my question to Nick about being "forced" to participate in "those rites"? I'm not sure what you are alluding to with your somewhat vague references to Bear achievements 1 and 2. Bear achievement 1a states under the Character Connection for Faith, "Practice YOUR FAITH" (emphasis added) Achievement 1b states: "Make a list of things you can do this week to practice YOUR RELIGION" Bear achievement 2 states: "Earn the religious emblem of YOUR FAITH" So what exactly does practicing your own faith have to do with Nick's statement about "forced" to participate in "those rites"? He was clearly implying that forcing someone to practice "rites" other than those of their faith can be problematic. Unless I'm missing something (entirely possible) your comment strikes me as a non-sequiter

Sounds to me like you have it covered -- and it sounds like it will be a fun campout.

MarkS: the whole point in going to BALOO is to learn to plan & conduct a pack family campout in accordance with BSA guidelines. If you let a non-BALOO trained person do the planning & organizing, what's the point of sending anyone to BALOO? So they can go along on a campout they didn't plan? The risk of having a non-BALOO trained person plan & organize the campout is that they will inadvertently plan or do something not in accordance with BSA policies. After all, isn't that why you send a person to get BALOO-trained in the first place? Here's a quote from the Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines (bin item 13-631):At least one adult giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO), No. 34162, and be present on campouts.So its not enough for the BALOO-trained person to merely attend the campout, they are supposed to be one of the adults giving leadership to the campout. It goes on to say:BALOO trains participants to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation.Again, if you leave it up to a non-BALLO trained person plan the program, ensure YP and H&S guidelines are followed, select the campsite, develop activities and recruit the adults, what's the point of sending anyone to BALOO?

Nick, like I told John, sometime my thick skull misses things -- can you point me to where the Interfaith syllabus (or ANYTHING in Scouting for that matter) "forces" anyone to participate in "those rites"?

I posted this article to illustrate an example of a group that chose to form their own Scouting organization, rather than trying to sue BSA to bend to its will. American Girls is another example of an organization formed as an alternative to Girl Scouts, and did not try to reform Girl Scouts into their own image. One wonders why other critics of BSA can't do the same . . .

Pagan Scouts http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=6124046 5/6/2008 Fresno, CA (KFSN) -- A scouting organization founded by Pagans is opening a chapter in the Central Valley. The local troop leader of Spiral Scouts says it's dedicated to reverence for nature and religious tolerance. Beckie Tetrault says for her son and daughter it's an alternative to Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. She says, "Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts tend to separate boys and girls and I wanted them to be able to scout together." The other issue for Tetrault is religion. While Girl Scouts have no religious affiliations, Boy Scout troops are usually sponsored by churches, and belief in God is a requirement for membership. "There's not really an issue with Boy Scouts, it's just that they are more Christian centered. Whereas Spiral Scouts is a more earth based scouting experience." Tetrault explains. The National Spiral Scouting organization was started by Wiccans, who believe in an Earth God and Goddess, and practice witchcraft. But Spiral Scouts is open to all faiths. That's one reason Angela Rahn says she wants her kids in Spiral Scouts. "I would just like to have my children involved with other children who are being raised the way my children are, which is being open to all religions even ones that are outside of the Christian faith." Spiral Scouts will do things like work on merit badges, do crafts projects and go camping. Tetrault says offering a pagan appreciation of nature, is not teaching religion. "This is not Pagan Sunday School or anything like that, we just tend to be more focused on earth centered belief systems." She adds, it's "More like, looking at, taking care of mother earth, and how our actions affect mother earth, and how we can do things to improve the situation for all people and all animals." The Fresno based Spiral Scouts troop meets at the Fresno Discovery Center on Saturdays.

[sctDad, I don't mean to criticize, but if you're going to post a Cub Scout question and assume we all know it's about Cub Scouts, it would help if you posted the question to the Cub Scout forum. Most of us think of "Camping & High Adventure" as a forum for Boy Scouts and Venturers and some responded accordingly to your question.] Having said that, as others have said, most of the "duties" for a Cub Scout family camp belong to each family. If there are common elements (campfire, for example), that's probably best left to the pack leaders and others experienced with campfire building. You can certainly ask each den to come up with a skit, or jokes, etc. Your BALOO-trained person can provide more details about the weekend activities / program for the campout, but also check to see if the local camp ranger knows of any activities sponsored by the campground that would be suitable for Cub-age kids (e.g., fishing). Good luck.

Again, I haven't seen it first-hand (and apparently, neither has everyone else), but I don't think the intent is to make the boys necessarily advance any faster -- I think the intent is to make the DL's job easier in terms of planning den meetings. Given the constant complaints I read here and elsewhere re: how the current training syllabus doesn't teach DLs how to actually plan & run a den meeting, I think (like I said earlier) that this sounds like just another step in an ongoing evolution: from written program helps to den meetings in a box to fast track online planning tools. Can the doubters suspend judgment until they actually SEE it?

Remember that pack family camping is car camping -- the campsite s/b close enough to "civilization" so that families can make a run to the local Wal-Mart for anything they might've forgotten. Cub Packs don't "rough-it" when they camp, at least not in my experience. The purpose of the camp is to make it fun for the families, not to teach wilderness survival. With that in mind, you should look for public campsites with running water (and all the other BALOO criteria) that are within a relatively easy drive for the families. As others have said, less than 2-3 hours is a good guide. But not everyone is lucky enough to be that close to a public campground. When in doubt, contact your local OA Lodge -- they (in most cases) maintain a list of campgrounds suitable for packs and troops.

Another possibility for disaster preparedness / disaster response training is your local CERT (Community Emergency Response Team). Not all communities have a CERT, but if yours does, you might contact them to see what they can do for you.

John, you know me, I guess I'm just dense so you'll have to lay it out for me. You object to the online syllabus -- I get that. You object to interfaith services -- I get that. What I don't get is this: what EXACTLY does your troop do during your campouts to observe the 12th point? Or do you have issues with your own troop as well? Not trying to be argumentative -- just seeking to understand. And I note for the record that it is far easier to criticize than it is to offer a constructive alternative . . .

Well, I haven"t seen it yet, so I will withhold judgment on it. But this should come as no surprise: we"ve had Program Helps for years, and for some DLs that wasn"t enough. So a year or two ago, National started putting out a "Den Meeting in a Box" every month. Now we have online program planning and tools. Seems to be the logical next step in an evolution that"s been going on for some time now . . .

I wonder if they represent the same lineage? Was the USS Scout named after the Boy Scouts? I think we can safely assume that was the case for the USS Boy Scout. I note there have have been several ships named USS Scout, but find record of only one named USS Boy Scout.

I was not a Boy Scout, so only recently became an adult OA member. I get a newsletter and pay my dues with my recharter. Its unfortunate that some lodges don't send a newsletter -- I think its one of the requirements for quality lodge. Ask your DE to find out who your chapter advisor is then bend his (or her) ear at the next RT.

Bob, unless you can write an interfaith service that is guaranteed to be non-offensive to all Scouters, then it seems to me just good planning to consider what you might say in the event the interfaith service does in fact offend someone. Or are you seriously suggesting that it is possible to write such a guaranteed non-offensive service and the syllabus should reflect that by ignoring even the possibility that someone could be offended?

John, I understand where you're coming from -- did you also take offense at the interfaith worship service during your WB course? Because that service was written by the chaplain aids using guidelines very similar to these. I don't understand why they had to change the name from "Scout's Own", but other than that, I have no problem with the concept of a spiritual gathering that is not faith-specific.

(I saw this posted on scouter-t) Conducting an Interfaith Service http://tinyurl.com/3rezc6 The purpose of this one-hour course is to teach Boy Scout leaders and Boy Scouts how to conduct a simple interfaith worship service at camp, on the trail, or during other outings. When we conduct Scouting activities, it is important that we call attention to a Scouts Duty to God through prayer at meal times and at other appropriate occasions. [excerpted]

erickelly65: IANAL (and not trying to hijack another thread) but I think there's much more involved in properly using BSA logos and trademarks than simply indicating that you are using a trademarked image. License fees, for example. When some (authorized) third-party mass produces a bunch of Scouting patches, you think they get to keep all the revenue from sales of those patches just because they put a or on them? If they are following the rules (and most companies pay their attorneys a lot of money to keep them out of trouble), then some of that money flows back to BSA in the form of license fees. If somebody uses BSA's intellectual property without an appropriate licensing arrangement (whether or not they put a or on it), you can bet BSA lawyers will come calling . . .

Also, budgets being what they are, I can certainly understand a family decision to keep their Webelos Scout in blue, especially if the shirt still fits. Some want to go to tan as soon as possible, thinking they will need to change only a few patches when the boy bridges (especially if pack and troop share the same unit number). But parents should keep in mind that the tan shirt will be worn for 3-4-5 years, and that the shirt that fit when the Webelos was in the 4th grade will be very tight by the time they age out of the troop as high schoolers. So some families delay the purchase of a tan shirt as long as possible, hoping it will last for the duration of the Boy Scout ranks.

I would also urge that any Scout taking on a service project for purposes of satisfying rank advancement, not to assume that the SM will approve his hours of service. The Scout should secure his SM's approval before starting any service project. I was at a district camporee a couple of years ago, when the DE asked several Scouts to help set up and put away chairs for an OA Dance Team show. To incent the boys, he said they'd get service credit for it. In total, the Scouts put in about an hour of work each (probably a dozen boys from various troops). I know of at least one SM who refused to give credit to his boys for their work because he had not approved the service in advance, and in any event, it was not the DE's place to make that promise. I thought the SM was being a bit horsey, but technically he was right, and those Scouts learned a lesson that day. Fortunately, it only cost them an hour -- but it could easily have been more. Don't assume, because you know what they say about "assume" . . .