FatherJim

Right On FB!

I think ASM1 was referring to the ACLU.

What a wonderful outpouring of care and concern by Scouters, you're family is in our prayers...peace.

Oh Yes, should be no question of wearing the uniform on SS, you really should. Now this is just my personal opinion (not advocating setting a rule, but just MY PERSONAL FEELING, don't care what anyone else does, not critizing anyone else, just my way...) but I've been to many business FOS and other fund raising events when I was a DC and always wore my Scout uniform. It was the regulation Scout pants, long sleeve shirt with green tie. I kept the badges and bobbles to the bare minumum required. I felt I gives the uniform a more "Dress" appearance instead of the "just came from the field" look. We do the same thing in the military. When I go to GO staff functions I don't wear my BDU, TA-50 and kevlar, but my As or Bs. Besides people always come up to you and chat when you have a uniform on, especially a Scout one, sort of a built in trust factor I guess. Just my opinion.

FB, Man you are either an "early riser" or a "atay up late" kind of person (according to your timed entry)! Glad to hear that Prez Clinton got an award! You're 100% correct about the other good citizens around us, may of whom perhaps owe no particular allegiance to any deity or religious system etc., but yet are decent upright citizens. And as I can well attest to, may devout citizens who have a fanatical devotion to a religious system yet don't practice what they preach or teach and are less than, what you might call good citizens...go figure! But as long as BSA has the membership guidelines I guess we are duty bound to adhere to them, doesn't mean they can't change. mhager feels the BSA turned its back on him, BIMHO they were just following their own rules, what else could they do?

As an old Army infantry grunt I must confess that after 1+ months in the jungle I considered a port-a-john a "higher being" and almost worshipped it! If the Prez had mentioned BSA by name in his speech we probably would have had nashing of teeth from the other organizations that also work with our nation's youth, he was probably just being PC, although, I agree with you, it was a golden opportunity to mention the BSA. Maybe BSA should have given him a silver animal award. Did BSA give Prez Clinton a silver animal award?

After reading through all 10 pages of this very exciting argument, and as past adjunct Professor of Ethics, Univ of MD-European Division, and holding an earned Ph.D. in Religion, I was very proud of the basically well reasoned views and arguments expressed by Scouters in support of BSA's commitment to keeping religion in the program. Although I my heart goes out to the young man who started this thread, I do believe he somewhat set up a straw man. When I defended my doctrinal disertation in front of 3 hard old German Lutheran Professors I used much the same tactic, i.e. I reasoned out every conceivable question they could possibly ask and developed a good answer for it. In my heart I wasn't looking for a greater truth but just defending my opinions. The end of the 2 hour grilling came when my advisor's dog grunted and rolled over on its back. Did I just hear someone grunt?

In response to the question about a Native American religious award for youth/adult. All you have to do is get an organized religious group or Native Americans together and have them work up a criteria and submit it to PRAY (probably some other criteria also). I would imagine almost any religious group could make up their religious award program since it is a religious' groups program not a BSA program.

Good input Semper Paratus, Mark Hazelwood at PRAY should be able to give the last word on the mentor deal. You're right there is an application form in the back of some award packets but I believe that only allows the adult mentor to purchase a small pin, not the religious award knot. Personally I am not real excited about an earned adult religious award, seems sort of like it would take away the prestigue of the award. But then each faith group can make that determination I guess.

You actually get part of your "ticket" punched by just finding Camp Freedom!

A lot of great advise, but I would really recommend, if it is your first canoe trip & not all are experienced, that you do not go on a river. As a former SM with a lot of wild stories about river canoe trips I would highly recommend a lake or big swimming pool for your first trip (HA HA). Almost lost a boy once and that was very scarry, always follow all BSA rules to the letter, this can be a very dangerous activity or it can be the highlight of your troops's activities. OBTW to increase your fun take a co-ed Explorer Post canoeing, nothing but laughs....

As a life member of the NLAS, (National Lutheran Assoc of Scouters)and past Vice-President, we take great interest in the Adult and Scout Religious Award program. When I lived in the States we had several District wide Lutheran retreats (MidAmerica) to work on the religious award. One of our Lutheran SM even got the Roman Catholic Adult Award for getting his troops RC youth to earn their awards! I also wicker the youth award into my Parish Confirmation and Sunday School programs. Of course the Scout award is granted by the Lutheran Church Cmte., via the NLAS, not the BSA. The adult awards (we have 2, Service to Youth and Lamb) are given on a nomination basis. But since the individual faith groups manage their own awards each faith group could do what it feels proper as far as giving the awards by earning or by nomination. Maybe one should consider having an earned adult award (not to replace the nominated one though). It's worth talking about. I didn't know you could get the religious award knot by being a mentor? Is that correct?

Cmarrero, Yes, I think you have a good point in having them wear uniforms to their own worship on the 6th and then inviting them to the CO's event on the 13th also. It would seem to be a good solution to include everyone, or at least give them the opportunity.

Yea, I totally agree that the best time for a Chaplain Aide is when there is no Chaplain available. The NLAS web site is very good. I normally volunteer for a week at our summer camp to be the Chaplain and am always surprised at how many of the troops don't even consider having chaplain aids, nor are they really aware of the religious awards program. But then that gives me another little mission at summer camp.

Any activity dealing with religion has the ability to turn into a major controversy if not handled with extreme sensitivity. My parish was the CO for the Troop/Post via our parochial school so the vast majority of the scouts were from the Lutheran faith. But I had to be extremelly careful not to have celebrations/worship participation, within the context of a worship service, for Scout Sunday that would compromise anyone else's faith. The Troop/Post liked to take turns visiting other churches on Scout Sunday and observing their worship (gave them a break from me!). In the few cases that a religious award was earned by our Scout from another faith group I always called their pastor and encouraged him/her to present the award during a Scout Sunday if possible. I always tried to keep at a bare minumum any activity that would or could be seen as as exclusive. i.e. having the bulk of the troop celebrating in one parish with a fund raiser etc. while another Scout of a different faith might not be able to attend. It can be worked out OK, but care should be taken.

Yea, I think you've gotten some good avise here. Letting the boys set the rules can often be a very good way for them to feel ownership. Only did about 2+ years on the Cub side of the house but our Den Leader would also work on the reward system for good behaviour, he owned a Dairy Queen! He was a great guy then somebody found out he was a convicted child-molester. After that it was back to the drawing board. Bottom line don't give up!

When #1 son was a Cub, back in the late 1970s, he came home with his block of wood for the PineWood Derby. As I was in Seminary at the time we neglected to get the car built until the weekend before the race. I helped sand down the wheels but told him he had to do the rest. Well, the day of the race the fathers from Internatinal Harvester design division had their Cub's aerodynamically designed super cars ready to race. #1 son put his pathetic little car on the track amid chuckles and whispers, my heart broke for him. Yet he never seemed to notice. He finished dead last, but...and here is the point. All through high school and even now as a medical student, guess what is displayed on his shelf...you got it! OBTW he made Eagle.