Fat Old Guy

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KS, I'm wid chew. We have 57 Scouts and I can't see the new SM sitting down with each individually. In any case, I haven't heard of a parent or adult making a fuss about a medical form. In fact, I think that some parents take a perverse pride in how "unusual" their child is. "Your son is ADHD? Mine is ADHD, OCD and ODD with severe allergies to potatoes."

" We do see them spending years and millions of dollars to overthrow a twice elected popular president." I must have been out of the country when this happened or maybe you're talking about Argentina.

" And I think that there are state or federal laws that do address this, even if they are BSA forms. " Like HIPPA, most laws regarding the confidentiality of medical records only effect professionals in a professional environment.

"Fog, forgive me, I am in a fog, what are we arguing about again, I agree with your last post" I'm not sure.

"So Fog are you saying that the end doesn't justify the means? Or just not in this situation?" Can a moral end ever justify an immoral means of reaching that end?

I don't think we have enough information to even begin to run amok with this one. What sort of threat was it. Did she say, "Sit down or I'll tie you into your chair"? Was it, "Call me a ho again and I'll slap your filthy mouth"? "Interrupt me again and I'll duct tape your mouth shut"?

" And you mean to tell us that a boy scout doesn't know if he is lactose intolerant?" Actually, I've known more than a few young people who aren't aware of their medical conditions. They just know that mom gives them medicine. I recall sitting in my aunt's kitchen one afternoon, BSing with my cousins while drinking milk and eating cookies. Somehow, ailments came up and my cousin said, "I have asthma." His mother said, "What? Where'd you get that idea?" Cuz said, "my nose runs and you make me take those pills." "No," said my aunt, "you have allergies." "Oh, what's the difference?" We were 15 or 16 at the time. I had a friend in college who had open heart surgery when he was an infant but his parents had never fully explained why he had the big scar on his chest until he was 20. Kids don't always know, either because they never cared enough or thier parents were trying to protect them.

"Okay, Bob, I'm beginning to feel ignored here." I'm just astounded that there is actually a BSA policy that Bob White doesn't follow. Maybe there is hope for him yet. Maybe he just disagrees with it because Ed and I follow it.

"I would like to ask about the last point you made. Do you really know of a situation where having a signed consent form for emergency treatment meant anything." We had a boy go to the hospital for stitches this summer. The adult had the signed forms in hand and the doctor stitched up the lacerated member. No fuss, no muss. "You only have ONE adult trained in first aid?" Most of our adults have had the basic first aid for scout leaders but that isn't a very in depth course. However, we have a couple of leaders who have extensive first aid training, one of them has the troop first aid kit on any outing.

"Lets take FOG's example that help is two hours away the scout has fallen and broken his leg. you look in his medical file to see what?" Ah, Bob White. Twisting the truth again. So an insulin reaction is a fantasy? Very interesting? Troop First Aider? Maybe that's a Girl Scout term that slipped it but it refers to the adult who is certified in first aid.

Bob White, still demonstrating that the Scout Law doesn't apply to him. Mr. White, your statements are patently absurd as my example that you called unrealistic points out. You consistently say "X" and when others point out that "X" is flawed, you reply, "I really meant Y with X as the foundation." You said that the envelopes should only be opened by trained and licensed health care professionals. That precludes the SM from opening it when help is two hours away. That precludes letting a police officer or park ranger open it. That even precludes the Troop First Aider form opening it.

What Bob White says that he siad, "All I have said is to respect the confidentiality of information until it is time to use it and then give it to appropriate medical professionals." What Bob White really said, "That way the medical form can be stored in a sealed envelope unless needed to be accessed for emergency medical treatment by a trained and licensed medical professional. Still doin' the fast back pedal.

"And FOG, what the heck is an "editorial thing"? " An editorial thing is simply an oversight on the part of the editors. Read HIPPA, it only applies to insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and the like. BSA and YMCA don't fall into that group. As for Bob and his wealth of experience, the vast majority of cops never draw their gun in the line of duty but they still carry one "just in case." Most fighter pilots never use their ejection seat but they still have one. I'll bet that you have never needed your seat belt but you still wear it. There's a lot of things in life that we don't need very often but are very important.

" In addition, no law requires you or holds you responsible for such responsibility. " That's small comfort when the kid dies and the legal sharks start circling.

"As far as I'm concerned, the moral obligation you have to stop that sort of language is the same that you would have if a group of the boys were telling "nigger" jokes in front of African-American boys." I'll be that you've never voiced a vocal complain about a black commedian telling "honkey" and "whitey" jokes.

"Nowhere have I said that the leader should be kept in the dark." Backpedalin' Bob. "You guys are missing a key point in that the G2SS make a distinction between Class 1 medical forms and Class 2 & 3." I think that's an editorial thing. The class two has information on it that is understandable important to the reasonably intelligent layman such as "activity restrictions" and "diet restrictions."

"homosexual bashing," it was a typo. Okay?

" Adult leaders can know the needs and characteristics of a scout without having access to the confidential medical information contained in a personal physical." Let's see . . . G2SS says to review the forms but Bob White says that we don't need to actually see the forms. Stop making up the rules as you go Bob White. Follow the program, that's the only way to deliver Scouting.

" Lincoln did what he had to to preserve the Union." So preserving the Union was more important the the thousand of lives that were ended? "As far as he other points you have, I have no problem with a Special Ops soldier doing what needs to be done, to intelligience officers doing what they need to do." Why? They are breaking numerous laws. Do the ends justify the means?

Wow! I must have jumped to another quantum reality! Bob White actually expressed an opinion in conflict with published BSA policy. The Second Coming is just around the corner! BTW, you may give me bad grades but that story reflects what you recommended and I see that the Scout Law doesn't apply to you.

The President of the whole country only makes $400,000 and that was only after a recent pay raise. A 4 star general is only making about $150,000 a year. "and the third is that he has to travel nation-wide." So? Many executives travel the country.

"I am not sure I remember history very well, but didnt Ollie North flat out lie to congress and his assitant Fawn Hall shred documents proving his perjury? Thats A great American?" Considering that Congress lies to America on a regular basis is it so bad that someone would lie to them? What about all the intelligence types that break the laws of other countries on a regular basis? Are they great Americans? What about the special ops types that violate the borders of countries that we are not at war with which is violation of many, many, laws (but is considered legal because the President waved his pen)? Are they great Americans? Honest Abe took this country into a bloody war to preserve his image of America. Was he a great American? Clinton lied on the stand but many consider him a great American.

Sorry Bob, gotta disagree with you there. The right to privacy ends when there is the potential for someone's health or safety being endangered. I can see a situation in Bob White's troop now. Johnny Jones is diabetic but his parents are embarassed to tell anyone. On an outing, Johnny goes into "insulin shock" and keels over. The SM says, "Hey, what's wrong with Johnny?" but no one knows and Johnny doesn't respond. The SM says, "Hey, let's look at the medical form!" but Bob White blocks his path saying, "You are not a properly trained and licensed health care professional! You may not look at that form." They are out of cell phone range and Johnny goes into convulsions and dies before they can carry him out. If the SM had been allowed to look at the records before hand, he'd have known that Johnny's pancreas had crapped out and he could have asked the parents what to do if Johnny keeled over. There's another issue, if someone from the unit doesn't check the medical forms for completness before you leave for summer camp, you risk having a Scout being turned away at the gate.

HIPPO (or GIRRAFFE) doesn't apply to BSA. This question has come up here in the past. Who do you want to have access to the records? Who needs access to the records? Most units don't have the luxury of having a doctor or nurse who tags along with the records under lock and key. If you or a Scout is diabetic, shouldn't anyone who is a leader on an outing know? If not, how are people supposed to respond properly if something happens?