Fat Old Guy

"FOG, Are you hinting at something... :-)" Mebbe, mebbe not. There's much to be said for that system. Even the worst kid in the world would mow the lawn when told if he knew that he would be stoned to death instead of being grounded.

Think what you want, Bob "What? Me Live By the Scout Law?" White.

I don't know the answer to "how far back" but I'd run it up the flagpole and see what happens. If they reject you, you can appeal.

"At no time did anything I write violate the G2SS and you know that" Oh, dance around that now. You said that leaders should not review medical forms and everyone here read it.

Sure I do, Bob White (motto: Rudeness is an art). Scouting is about camping and hiking and peeing in the woods. In the meantime, Scouts are supposed to learn valuable life skills like answering questions, talking to adults, making decisions, accepting the consequences for their decisions and dealing with being on the spot. If a Scout can't deal with being on the spot, he won't even get past the "Scout" stage. If he can't tie a square knot for his PL because he's petrified or he just sits in a BOR and stares into space, he won't go far. Part of the mission is to help Scouts get past that fear or performance anxiety. Heck, that's part of Cub Scouts. That's why skits are an important part of Cub Scouting or so they told me in Cub Scout Leader Training.

"So when you do NOT have the established program and youth leadership built into your troop - how do you GET there, without adult help? " Follow the program. It is all in the books. ;-)

Gee Bob, glad to see that you can follow the rules of a thread. "All things good except parts of the G2SS what are you talking about now? That's ridiculous and you know it. What part of the G2SS have I ever said I disagreed with?" Maybe I was tripping on LSD that had been applied to pay phone buttons but I recall a thread in which a Bob White (motto: friend to all but those who disagree with me) stated that medical forms should be sealed in an envelope for emergency use and not reviewed by the leaders as suggested by the G2SS. Yeah, it must have been that pay phone I used the other day.

"I have been in Scouting for 40 years and only today did I learn that we are not in the education (teaching) business. " I think that you misconstrue. Perhaps you are learning from Bob White. . . ooooo, that was low. If someone is testing at a BOR, they are not teaching. The people that run the SATs aren't teaching they are testing. The PL who says, "Show me a square knot" isn't teaching at that point, he's testing. "Put the kid on the spot" All tests put the kid on the spot. The PL saying, "show me a square knot" puts the kid on the spot. Asking the kid "what merit badges did you earn this summer" puts the kid on the spot. Cooking dinner puts the kid on the spot. Telling the kid to call the Scoutmaster to schedule a conference puts the kid on the spot. Anytime we ask a kid to perform, we are putting him on the spot. Scouting teaches kids to deal with being on the spot with aplomb.

Bob White, you're invited to not participate because we know that you believe that 11 year olds make great leaders. Everyone else, if you've tried patrols of all 11 year olds being led by another 11 year old, what's your experience been? I haven't seen it work. My experience is geographically limited so what's it like in Korea, Guam, or Oklahoma? Bob White (motto: All things BSA are good except part of the Guide to Safe Scouting) seems to think that 11 year olds can be taught to be effective leaders of other 11 year old, even if it takes a year or two.

I do find it interesting that when this topic was introduced in another thread, I had agreed with Bob White (motto: The Scout Law applies to everyone else but not me), I didn't even make a snide remark. It didn't take long for Bob to attack and to continue to demonstrate that a Scout may be courteous but that Bob White doesn't need to be. (This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

"Maybe we need to look at what we are training them?" Training is all well and good but it only goes so far. It doesn't go very far when you are dealing with an 11 year old trying to lead a bunch of 11 year olds who voted for the PL because he was the only candidate. An 11 year old trying to convince a bunch 11 year olds that things need to be done that they want to do. That's a bunch of 11 year olds who'd be willing to give up TV for a month just for five more minutes of tormenting their younger sisters. These 11 year olds don't grasp the idea that someone has to do the scut work and not everyone can build the campfire. Anyone who has been involved with youth sports will tell that at 11 boys don't take to coaching all the time. It is the exceptional 11 year old that really grasps the idea of that they don't all get to score goals, that the guy who passes to the shooter is important as well. At 11, ME is still very important, more important than US. Sometimes, with 11 year olds, the directive method is the only one that works. Well, that's everywhere but Bobland where 11 year olds exist in a continuium of cooperation and none want to torment their sisters.

Well Bob, if there were six hours to kill, I'd go find the SPL and let him explain to the PL that he needs to motivate the patrol by explaining to them that dishwashing is an important task that impacts the health an hygiene of the entire patrol and that if the assigned person didn't do the dishes that someone else would have to pick up the slack which would mean that something else wouldn't get done. However, the Scouts would be unmoved by this speach and still refuse to do the dishes because none wants to get all greasy and smelly. At this point, the SPL says, "do what you're told or I'll have my enforcer ASPL pound you." My way is simpler and teaches them that they need to respect the chain of command that they set up.

"I think we've all been there where you got a group of just totally bad-attitude-weilding grumpy obnoxious scouts (havn't we??)" Never in Bobland!

"Up to this point you have only offered imagined scenarios" Boy, it's a good thing that the Navy doesn't use any imaginary scenarios for training officers. I remember being at a training conference and someone said, "What if a terrorist blows up a boat load of explosives next to one of our ships?" We all laughed at him and the instructor kicked him out of the room because that had never happened. I guess that it is a good thing that the Secret Service never uses imaginary scenarios for training because they that no one will ever attack the President in an unusual fashion, like shooting at the White House.

Tsk, tsk, dan. You're getting as nasty as Bob White who doesn't follow the Scout law. I'm well loved by the Scouts in my troop, they vie for the honor of holding my parasol, opening my beer, and lighting my see-gars.

In a perfect world, there'd be no need for retesting. All the leaders would work hard to make sure that the Scouts new their stuff before they signed off. Unfortunately, too many adults and maybe even some Scouts want to sign off on things that haven't been properly demonstrated. Why do they do this? Maybe to show that they are a "good friend." Maybe because they don't want the Scout to feel left behind when he doesn't advance. If the system worked as designed, no one would feel like they needed to do any retesting because the Committee would KNOW that the leaders, both adult and youth, have done their jobs. As much as we'd like to do testing at BORs, we shouldn't. It defeats the purpose of the BOR. Instead of re-testing at a BOR ask questions about the Scouts experience. "Do you know your knots?" "Oh yeah!" "What's your favorite knot?" "That one where the bunny goes through the hole." Now if he says, "I dunno" ask more questions. "How did you learn your knots." If he says, "Bobby showed us how to tie them and then signed our books," you have a problem. We actually had something like that happen a couple years back. The SPL was supposed to teach the new Scouts firebuilding on a campout but he wanted to go down to the lake with his buds. He showed the Scouts a couple fire lays and signed their books. "I do feel that some adult equipped with a rope or a map and compass is not going to pass on any real education at a board of review." I don't think they are trying to do any educating, they are trying to determine if skills have been learned.

"I try to think how much cheaper a Scout uniform is then all the bad stuff that he could be spending money on." Yeah, like soccer shoes!

" Maybe when he was a Patrol member he didn't listen to his PL & his Patrol members think why should we!" Maybe none of them want to be there because they are missing the Harry Potter premier. Maybe no one wants to listen to him because they don't like him but he was the only Scout who wanted to run for PL. Maybe they don't want to listen to him because they'd rather be playing frisbee and not setting up tents.

Bob White's pick-up game of baseball: "Okay, Bob and Jim are captains and pick teams." Bob says, "I'll take Ralph." Jim says, "You can't have Ralph, he's the best fielder." Bob says, "Okay, everyone who thinks that I should get Ralph, raise your hand." Bob says, "Okay, I'll take Freddy. Freddy, you'll play right field." Freddy says, "I don't want to field, I want to pitch." Freddy sucks at pitching but Bob says, "Okay, you can pitch and we'll support you in your efforts and help you suceed." Bob then selects Timmy who is a good pitcher. Timmy says, "I'm a good pitcher, why can't I pitch." Bob says, "We need to support Freddy in his efforts to learn to pitch. It may be hard for us and we may lose the game but we'll be better for the effort." Timmy says, "Bob, you're the captain, you need to put the players in the positions where they'll do the best good for the team." Bob responds, "No as captain, my job is to lead the team in a cooperative effort so that each player has a chance to grow and play the position that they want to play." Interestingly, we had Junior Leader Training today and one of the points that was brought up was that the PL needs to assign the jobs that suck on a rotating basis so that everyone shares. I guess in Bob's troop, the PLs say, "Who wants the sucky jobs?" and the Scouts all clamor for them because they like to function in a spirit of cooperation. Since everyone wants a job that sucks, the PL has to force them to take the fun jobs. Life must be interesting in Bobland. Oh yeah, once again Bob White shows that the Scout Law is only words.

do you mean that you posted your email address in a message? That's about the only way that a spambot could get it from here.

"all the other kids had guns and played "army", but not me." I'm wondering how many of your playmates grew up to be Mercenaries in the Congo, violent criminals, or mass murderers. Thinking back to my childhood friends who played army, cowboys & indians and cops & robbers with me, only two would up in the armed forces. They became chefs, accountants, engineers, paramedics, and lawyers. No cops, robbers, cowboys, or indians out of the bunch.

"Everybody knows that someone needs to do the dishes and that someone needs check the fire buckets, who would like to do that for Staurday's breakfast. We will all take turns." Then the PL or the patrol scribe writes down on the Duty roster who has agreed to do what, and when. " And if no one wants to do the dishes? What then, oh great leader? The Patrol Scribe has nothing to write down. "Solicit ideas and concerns from patrol members so they have input to the planning and operations of the patrol." So? Someone still needs to make the final decision. Just as the President seeks advice from many people, he still makes the final call. By the way, the best leader in the world cannot lead those who are unwilling to be led. "If when you were little you chose a captain who bossed everyone around then you should have picked a different captain." Hmmm. . . in my little world, it was the captain's job to tell people where to play, it wasn't a committe decision.

", Do you advocate following, to the letter, everything mandated in Leviticus? The Torah? Or just the parts you like? " I like the part that says that if you have a disobedient child, you should take him to the elders and say, "This is my disobedient child, put him to death." I'll bet that they didn't have much back talk back then. :-)

I would look at this from a fairness issue. Is it fair to ask two boys in the same den who are working on the same badge to meet different requirements?

" My understanding is that Studio2B is an attempt (maybe not an ideal attempt, but an attempt nonetheless)to keep preteen girls interested in Girl Scouting" As I said, "keep revenue coming into GSUSA." Maybe it is more like Venturing but I don't see too many Venturing crews going to barber shops as an outing. What I know about Scoutreach is only what I've read but from what I can tell it is a traditional program delivered in non-traditional ways. It isn't a program that hides the fact that it is Boy Scouts. Korea Scouter, my daughter's GS troop is an interesting situation and I consider myself pretty fortunate that she fell into that troop. The troop has Daisies, Brownies, Juniors and Cadets. The Juniors have some level of self-direction and the Cadets are pretty much self-directed. The downside is that the different groups interact very little. The Cadets don't provide leadership for the younger girls.