Fat Old Guy

" I really don't consider the "activities uniform" to be a true uniform. (i.e. I don't salute in activities uniform.)" It is a uniform for the same reason that dungarees are a uniform in the Navy that reason being the people that make the decisions say it is. Go ahead and salute. " I cannot excuse veteran adults in the Boy Scout program for having poor uniforming." Possibly the poor uniform is a function of our society. I went to a wedding yesterday and there were adults, real grown ups with grandchildren, there in jeans and polo shirts. Business has gone to "casual" and very few have served in the military and I find that many ex-military seem to have contempt for the idea of the uniform.

There is an alternative to the red wool jacket, it is that really nasty nylon jacket. They used to sell a red poplin jacket and I'd love to find one. The local OA lodge sells red fleece jackets with the OA emblem on the back.

Let the Scouts pick the names as long as they don't pick an inappropriate name like "Butchers of Girl Scouts". We had a "Dead Squirrel" patrol for a while. I don't understand why some troops insist on reforming patrols every year. Let the patrols exist with members coming and going, that way traditions get carried on and later when an old Scout talks about having been in the "Giant Anteater" patrol he and the new Scout in that patrol have a common bond.

"I never thought you were faking merit badge cards." If I could find the perforated card stock with the right sized cards, I'd do just that. Print the whole thing, including names and signature on a color printer (with waterproof ink). It might jack the cost up from 7 cents to 10 or 12 cents per card but it would be worth it to save the handwriting.

"First, who do you think may know what is best for a youth, his parents or the Cubmaster? " The state tells us that they know best so why shouldn't the Cubmaster? All too often I see parents "who know what's best" pushing their kids into activities and it looks like the reasons are gratification for the parents. "Johnny's playing travel soccer, it's going to set him up for high school in six years." In the meantime, Johnny's miserable because he's not playing with his friends and in the 4th grade really isn't worried about high school yet. Years ago, I was helping out at pre-season weigh-in for a youth football league. They have a formula based on age and weight to determine where a kid will be place. One blubbery 10 year old's weigh would have had him playin with 14 year olds. The league director refused to bump him up that far, saying that he's be "eaten alive" by the older kids because they are stronger, faster, and more mature. Mom (also blubbery) was furious, started cursing at the director and had to be escorted out of the building. Who knew "what was better" and had the kid's best interest at heart?

Home schooling. . . I know some home school kids who are educated at home because of religious reasons. These are the ones who worry me, every other comment seems to end with "isn't God wonderful." ("Would you like to cross our monkey bridge?" "My, that was fun. Isn't God gracious to have provided this.") The majority of home schooled kids that I know are there because the parents got fed up by the public schools and they can't afford private schools. These kids lead well rounded lives except for going to school. They play soccer, baseball and basketball, are in girl scouts or boy scouts, and have friends in the neighborhood. You brother's girl friend could have been just plain dumb. Ever watch tht Jay Leno segment where he asks people on the street questions? I know high school students who don't know which side won the civil war or why water is called H20. I knew a kid in junior high, considered pretty bright by the schools, who didn't know his mother's name.

"And, once you're in the door, you can get guarantees on your MOS/AFSC/Rate." Don't they still have the wonderful thing called "The needs of the service"? "I know you signed up to be a clerk/typist son but we need tank mechanics now."

KS, as Ben Stein would say, "I bow to your superior knowledge" and I'm now going to visit my JAG buddy, smack him in the head and make him buy me a beverage or six made from hops and barley because not only do I hate being wrong, I hate having bad gouge and distributing that same bad gouge. I did some poking around and found that you were right, my original thoughts were right and the JAG was wrong, makes you wonder how he made it to Commander . . . . Federal laws concerning the wear of the United States Military uniforms by people not on active duty are published in the United States Code (USC). Specifically, 10 USC, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 45, Sections 771 and 772. Section 771 states: Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear - (1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or (2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps Section 772 lists some exceptions: (a) A member of the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard may wear the uniform prescribed for the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard, as the case may be. (b) A member of the Naval Militia may wear the uniform prescribed for the Naval Militia. © A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade. (d) A person who is discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may wear his uniform while going from the place of discharge to his home, within three months after his discharge. (e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade held by him during that war. (f) While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force. (g) An officer or resident of a veterans' home administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs may wear such uniform as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe. (h) While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by that armed force if the wear of such uniform is specifically authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned. (i) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the Air Force may prescribe, a citizen of a foreign country who graduates from an Air Force school may wear the appropriate aviation badges of the Air Force. (j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category: (1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America. (2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department I find the highlighted section interesting. I suppose it was put in there because the original BSA uniform were Arym castoffs. "What Scouts do (wear dockers with their shirts) and what we as leaders should be modeling and encouraging can be two entirely different things, and apparently are in this case." I can count the number of Scouter that I know who are fully uniformed on my hands, even counting those who wear any shade of green on their lower half.

"Two deep does not always mean there must be two adults present." While that makes sense that's isn't what it says. However, the whole thing makes for goofy situations too many times. The restroom is one, you shouldn't even have two adults in the restroom with Scouts. How about at summer camp, you're taking a kip and wake up to discover that a group of Scouts has returned and you're the only adult present.

"Yeah -- don't fake merit badge cards!" I'm not faking them. I want to print the information on labels and stick them onto the card to save me some writing. Could stick a bug into National's ear and get them to make Merit Badge cards in sheets that I could run through my printer? Ed, I hadn't thought of that.

"First, even if somebody came up with an authoritative reference that said they were okay, why would any of us condone, let alone encourage it?" As a practical matter we allow Scouts to wear Dockers and jeans with their uniform shirt. Why not BDU trousers? If you're tramping around in the woods, BDU pants make sense. The BDU jacket (or do they call it a shirt?) is great for being out doors since it has all those big pockets. Personally, I don't care much for camouflage unless you actually need to hide. That's why I find it amusing that Army and Air Force computer weenies and clerk typists wear BDUs instead of an undress uniform like sailors did back in my day. I think that sailors those situations still wear the undress uniform instead of dungarees when ashore. I think that if you want to wear BDU pants instead of Scout pants, get a pair in OD. I just started this thread because I was looking for an answer. BTW, I've seen many, many used uniforms in surplus shops with all insignia attached.

" I have been taught by military instructors in a long past training course, that it's a violation of the U.S. Code (please don't ask me which section/chapter, I don't have the U.S. Code at my house, or in my office for that matter) for civilians to wear military uniforms with the insignia on them" That's what I thought for years but according to my JAG connections that isn't the case unless the person uses such uniform to attempt to gain access to a restricted facility. However, my neighbor could dress up as an Admiral and go to the corner watering hole and tell war stories all night long. The only repercussions would be what the real vets did to him when discovered the fraud. How authortative is that? Well, he didn't give me chapter and verse but he's been practicing military law for 20 years so should have a clue. If he's wrong, I'd like a citation so I could say, "nyah, nyah! You were wrong about something."

"I only wish we could have similar training." Every journey starts with a single step. Mighty oaks from little acorns grown. Etc., etc., etc.. You could start it. Get the literature from BSA and adapt for things like hanging upside down and the negative gravity that you have down there. :-)

How do fonts relate to advancement? I'm trying to find a serif typeface that matches the typeface used on merit badge cards. I must have access to 2,000 fonts. No they're not all installed but a few years back, I got a font cataloging program and went through every distribution disk that had fonts on it. There are serift typefaces galore buy I can't find one that matches exactly. Does anyone have a suggestion?

Ah, the old training complaint. It would be nice to send out an post card to every new leader. I'll suggest that to the District Training Chair although she migh shoot me because she's having enough trouble getting enough staff to do training. I guess that we depend mostly on a top down approach. The Cub Master and Committee Chair do the rah-rah for training, everyone gets motivated and goes to training. The system breaks down because so few Cub Masters or Committee Chairs do anything themselves. I go to Roundtable on a regular basis and I'm always amazed at the poor turnout, especially on the Cub Scout side. I was helping out by stuffing papers into the mail folders and one pack hadn't picked up any announcements for nearly a year. I happen to know the Cubmaster of that pack and when I used to mention things that my pack was doing that the Discrict or Council had set up, he'd be astounded. "How did you get hooked up with that?" was the regular question. For some reason, too many people in Scouting, especially Cub Scouts, just want to "get by." "I get by, I don't need any training," is their anthem. These same people then complain about having to come up with ideas for activities and meetings. "Hey! I say, look in your Program Helps and other literature. You're re-inventing the wheel."

"Please allow me to comment on Col. Mike Walton -- " It's Lt. Col. Mike Walton. Big difference. :-) Usually, Walton cites historic or current references to support what he says but this time he doesn't. :-( Aiiiiieeeee! His feet are made of clay!

"DSteele you are right there is only one Boy Scout uniform." Actually, there are two current Boy Scout uniforms. There is the field uniform of khaki shirt, green pants or shorts, scout belt, neckerchief and scout cap that so many call the "Class A." There is also the "activity uniform" which is the red "activity shirt," green pants or short, scout belt and scout socks that many class a "Class B." Funny isn't it that when so many are crying about camouflage and military appearance that these same people use military terms for identifying the different uniforms.

"I take it that a powder horn is a meeting of leaders. What is its purpose, who is it for, how often does it occur? etc " Powder horn is advance leader training for Venturing Advisors. Check out http://www.powderhorn-bsa.org/ "In know what a powder horn is in terms of equipment." I'd like to know how a powder horn is related to Scouting. Powder horns were carried by the American frontiersmen who were the ultimate high adventure guys. Maybe that's the connection.

Actually, I've read Mike's web page and one of our committee members has discussed it with Mike. The important points are that only members of the military are prohibited by law from wearing BDU parts with parts of the Scout uniform. Nothing would prohibit them from wearing a complete BDU unless they were behaving improperly for a member of the armed forces. Also, that paragraph from the regs cited by Mr. Walton can be interpreted many ways. The Scout uniform is what cannot look military. Blue jeans aren't part of the uniform and neither are BDU pants. Then we also have the comments from Man O'Steele, nearly as authoratative as you can get. Mr. Steele considers it an "alleged" prohibition on camouflage. I'll go with Mr. Steele.

"t if we (women) are good enough to fight beside you and save your butt, pay us what we're worth - well, we'd settle for equal." The military pays women exactly the same as men. As for the likelyhood of the draft, it may come back. If we stay in Iraq for very long, recruitment will drop. The problem with enticing recruits with benefits was shown during GW I. How many soldiers were heard whining about how they just joined to get an education? How many times did we hear about how UNFAIR it was to send both parents away even though they knew darn well that was a possibility?

I checked that web site, it says "We'll Be Loyal Scouts."

I know that this has been hammered to death but I'm too lazy to dig around in the archives. Can anyone cite an authoritative BSA document that prohibits the wearing of camoflauge during a Scout activity. This much I know: The BSA regs say that the uniform cannot mimic a military uniform but can't apply to my BDU pants because they are not part of the BSA uniform. It is not a crime for a civilian to wear a part or parts of a military uniform unless he attempts to gain access to a military facility. It is a crime for a service member to wear his BDU pants with his Scout shirt. If you open a Cabela's catalog, you'll see pages of camoflauge that have nothing to do with the military.

Sorry KA6BSA, I'm not buying. "We'll" isn't two words, it is one word that replaces two, that's the meaning of a contraction. In any case, the people that create the acronym get to decide its meaning, not anyone else.

OGE, you bring up a good point and I've seen that in many organizations. We have one parent registered from nearly 1/2 of our Scouts but our troop still needs help. Why? Too many parents say, "just let me know what I can do" but when you call on them, they have an excuse every time. To them, "helping out" is bringing soda to the Christmas Winter Holiday Party.

"One thing that does concern me, is that a good many of these leaders are only in Scouting for as long as their son is active." I've noticed that as well but that is true of many boomers as well. Then again, I have an acquaintance who is an Eagle Scout, joined the Marines, did his time, got out, found a troop and has been an ASM for the past decade. He's not married and has no children.