Fat Old Guy

"I cannot find any reference in the BSA literature to the rule you mention." It's true. I don't have any Cub Scouting books left, they all went to my successor, but there is a reference someplace that says that if a loop was earned before Webelos, it can be earned again to satisfiy that requirement. Pretty inane but that's the way it is.

"I find it offensive that anyone feel the need for "slings and arrows" on these forums." I find it odd that you don't find it offensive when Bob White attacks and insults people. BTW, I haven't seen an answer to my question about what do you have to support your opinion that goes against the printed word in G2SS.

"but I'm sure one or both of you will attack me now." Bob White might but I reserve my slings and arrows for him.

" I do not wear my Boy Scout uniform to her meetings or outings (I am not yet a registered Girl Scout leader.)" I don't go to regular GS meetings or outings but I do attend ceremonies in uniform to show support for the world family of Scouts and Guides. "sailors, marines and airmen do not wear their uniform 24/7" I'm old enough to remember when they did wear their uniform most of the time.

"Regardless of what anyone says, youth with valid driver's licenses are legally allowed to drive themselves to regular meetings of the troop." How do you reconcile this opinion with the explicit prohibition on such things by the G2SS?

dsteele said, " If you're going as a fellow Scouter," I'm a Scouter 24/7 so I'd always be there as a fellow Scouter. COH, definately wear it no matter what type of Scouter you are. Regular troop meeting, if I was a Cub Scouter I'd wear my uniform just to set a good example. My son and I wear our Scout suits to any Girl Scout function that we attend and my daughter wears her uniform to all Boy Scout functions. someone else said, " my thoughts are it depends on what the Boy Scout wants to do." I don't buy that. Part of the role of parents is to teach appropriate behavior which includes dress. However, I seem to be out of step with many of today's parents as I've seen teens at funerals wearing t-shirts, shorts and sandals.(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

"First, this really isn't the point of eamonn's thread," So? Threads, like conversations, meander. When you're talking to a friend, assuming that you have friends, about football and the conversation turns to instant replay technology which leads to the new camcorder that he bought, do you you say, "Hey, we'll talk about that later. We're talking football now." (Bob White and football?) Also, why should it concern you how a thread meanders? You've been invited to not participate in threads but still felt it necessary to stick your beak into the discussion.

Could it be that adults are less likely to lose their cards? I have mine right . . . . well . . . it was here . . . oh yeah, I know where it is. I'll go get it.

Bob White, you are always proclaiming that we should accept what is written in BSA documents without interpretaion or personal spin. However, you seem to exclude G2SS. First you tell us to ignore the section about being familiar with the Scouts med forms. Now, you're reading into things on transportation just to make them fit your needs. To borrow from Gomer Pyle, "Fer shame!" Let's break this down. Is a Troop meeting a Scout activity? Ja, es ist ein Scout activity. Is a Troop meeting an area, regional or national activty. Nein, es is nicht ein area, regional or national activy. Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank? Ooops, wrong song. So we have a Scout activity that is not area, regional or national in nature. May a Scout drive to an activty that is not an area, regional or national activity? Nope. Hence, a Scout may not drive to a Troop meeting. BTW, as stupid as this policy is, I'd argue this point with anyone.

"no more a proper moral role model for Scouts as the obese Scoutmaster," That would disqualify nearly 50% of the Scouters out there, male and female.

" They don't need parental permission to sign up for the High School ski club, so why should they need it for a crew." However, you do need a parental permission slip to play sports. My son's still in middle school and he needed a permission slip to join the reading club (dangerous activity, reading)

Back in olden days the handbook said that the SM would contact parents, teachers, ministers to dertermine how well the Scout lived by the Scout Law. If that was still the case, no one would advance ;-)(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

"A Licensed driver can drive himself to any meeting he wants." Where does it say that?

"what I am talking about happened 30 years ago, and I don't think it lasted very long" I remember that. I think it all has to do with the push to make youth into adults. If he's a "Boy Scout" he can't be growing up, can he? As for the sports thing, it might be regional and I'm not in New Jersey but I did see Springsteen in concert back in '76.

"You have not done that yet." I did, you just don' unnerstand Anglish too good.

"after all, the BSA did start to reduce the usage of the word 'Boy'" It isn't fashionable to use the term "boy" anymore unless you are trying to get someone off for armed robbery (He's only 17. He's just a boy). I've noticed many high schools refer to their boys' sports as "Mens' baseball, lacrosse, etc. but the girls game is still "girls".

"So, God will judge me for being confident about what His Word says - But he'll passover me if I'm having sex with everything that moves" How about being confident about what He said and having sex with everything that moves? That way you'll have all bases covered. I really like the part of the OT that says if you son is disobedient, have him stoned. I'll bet they didn't have much back talking back then.

" Which one does not use patrol method?" Don't recall saying that they didn't use the patrol method. I believe that I said that it wasn't effective because of the short duration but you knew that.

"The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions:" As I read this, a Troop meeting is not an area, regional or national Boy Scout activity so a Scout may not drive to it. Maybe the words mean different things to you.

NJCubDude said, "I don't think of the BSA as a 'they,' I think of it as 'we.' " It isn't that way if you accepts the teaching of Bob White. "Are we to infer from the above the appropriate response to a policy that one disagreed with, of an organization one was a member of, would be to simply quit and find or found an organization more aligned with ones own opinions?" If the disagreement is significant enough, yep. I don't like the quality of the current BSA uniform but that isn't enough to make me quit. On the other hand, I took a stand when the Smithsonian tried to paint the US as the villian in WW II, so I dropped my membership and let them know why.

" There is no scout leader training that is structured in the way you suggest. No wonder your council is concerned." Sure there is. There different segements are offered as discrete courses with no need to do them all and are promoted by the council as a "take what you can, when you can" system. No continuity of patrols there, if they are used at all. One of our ASMs went to another district for his training, the new stuff. His "patrol" was only required to meet as a patrol once and that was before the outdoor segment. No patrol cheers, flags, or comaraderie. Of course, we all have to recognize that no one in the world has a clue about anything related to Scouting unless they come from the midwest. "t is more likely that they have the teaching skills but have failed to keep up with today's training programs from the description you have provided." Of course you are right which explains why so many Scouters from other districts made the effort to come to our training. Word spread about the crappy training and the renegade trainging staff and motivated people drive 50 miles out of their way to attend these sessions.(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

"It is highly unlikely that the Council Training committee has any problem with a Disrtict developing esprit d'corps in Scoutleader basic training courses such as Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training and Introduction to Outdoor Skills, since both include adult Patrols and fun as part of the course design." You're absolutely right Bob, I have no idea what that fellow from the Council Training Committee was talking about. Maybe the whole thing was a figment of my imagination. Of course, the way that the old course ran from start to finish with one group of people broken into patrols was far different than the new system that goes in fits and starts with the patrols existing for a week or two before vanishing to be reformed with different people for the next phase of training. Of course, the District Training staff that's been working as a team for 20 years doesn't have a clue about training people. I'm sorry Bob White, I should have never brought the whole matter up because as we all know, all change from BSA is change for the good and to criticize said changes just shows that we are evil people.

"What sense does that make?" It makes the same sense that a 17 year old Venturer can drive to a meeting but a 17 year old Scout cannot.

As much as I like to pick things apart, I can't tell you what not to do. Let your SPL run things. Okay, here's a don't: don't let the adults act like den leaders. Here's an example, last campout my son's patrol had great hot breakfasts of pancakes, sausage and eggs. The other patrols' "advisors" didn't want to fuss with cooking (for some reason the adults think that they have to cook) so they had cold cereal and Pop Tarts. There were 10 happy scouts with full bellies and a bunch of grumpy Scouts who didn't understand why they couldn't have a good breakfast.

" But surely you don't think it's unreasonable to criticize the membership standards of even a private organization if they are manifestly unfair?" Why? It's their organization and they can set whatever standard that they want. If I really don't like it, I can form my own organization. " I'm not really impressed by a response that he's the Pope and I'm a nobody." That's the way that it is. He is the Pope, elected by the College of Cardinals and you are . . . maybe not a nobody but not someone whose opinion carries any weight.