Fat Old Guy

"Then to my surprise I read in an old (copyright 1989) Order of the Arrow Handbook talks about both a Class A and a Class B uniform." The tenth edition of the Handbook refers to the "Field Uniform" and the "activities uniform." The ninth edition of the Handbook only refers to "the Uniform" as do early editions of the hand back to the 5th.

In my troop, it is up to the Scoutmaster to determine who need financial help. As far as I know there is only one family that really could use help (most of the families have the $40,000 SUVs and $500,000 homes). A few years ago we had a leader who was crying poormouth because he had just moved and his wife wasn't working. The committee wanted to spring for a uniform for him because "he was having problems." I said, "Whoa! This fellow buys coffee that costs $25 a pound. If you buy him a uniform, I want you to pay for mine as well."

I've observed that recruiting a leader who really doesn't want to be a leader is a recipie for disaster. I saw a pack fold because the Cubmaster took the job and was just counting days until he could get out. It was really sad, this guy skipped committee meetings, missed the end of year campfire, as well as missing pack meetings. He always claimed that work kept from attending but he never bothered to tell anyone when he wouldn't be able to make it.

" Cochran tells him he was not responsible for his brother's death, rather the adults who let him slide were." Is there no responsibility on the part of the Scout to want to learn the right way? If your doctor cheats his way through medical school, whose fault is it when you die on the table? Although I don't see any moral problem with your approach, I don't believe that it follows BSA's policies.

Beaver Dude said, "The uniform is not designed for canoeing or rappeling." I find it interesting that until the current handbook was released, the handbook identified the uniform as ideal clothing for outdoor activities. Maybe what BSA really needs to to get away from the designer uniform and go back to a practical uniform that can be worn outdoors and with the application of soap and an iron looks good for ceremonies. Beaver Dude also said, "You say that boys would quit if they were made to wear the complete uniform. Hogwash! My son played baseball, basketball and took Tae Kwon Do. All REQUIRED a uniform." Oh how true but don't you know that there's a difference? Sports are importants and Scouts is just . . . well, Scouts. At least that's what I've been told. I've said it before and I'll say it again, what galls me the most is the mom who cruises up in her $40,000 SUV, takes an annual sea cruise during spring break, shops at Nieman-Marcus, and then complains about the cost of Scouting.

"Ok excuse me for being OLD SCHOOL, there is no Class A or Class B by official policy, its OFFICIALLY called Field uniform and Activity uniform. But every troop and district in our council and even council still refers to it as Class A and Class B." Old School? There never has been a Class A or Class B in BSA so that can't possibly be Old School Class A is a military term that has been picked up by Scouters because they think that it sounds cool. As for everyone using it, that still doesn't make it right and doesn't mean that you have to follow suit.

Looking around at my troop meeting last night, I thought that camo pants might be an improvement over what was being worn. Our last Scoutmaster thought that the whole idea of a uniform was "silly," (his words and often expressed in front of the Scouts) so we have much inertia to overcome. Pants that I saw last night included baggy pale blue basketball shorts. Baggy gangster jeans. Some sort of baggy jeans with buckles and studs all over them. Only two pair of green pants of any sort were visible on the Scouts and one pair belonged to my son. I know that one ASPL has Scout pants because he bought them for his Eagle Board but he never wears them (his father also thinks that uniforms are "silly").

"If camo were all grey and black it might still work well hiding from deer in a green and brown woods." Deer are color blind which is why they sell hunting camo which has blaze orange as one of the colors.

Recruit and train District Committee members NOW. Talk about running some events as joint events until both districts find their legs. Examples are training, Camporee, and Klondike.

First, there ain't no such thing as a "Venture Scout." Second, I finally tracked down my son's current handbook and boy, has the song about the uniform changed. No longer is it the ideal uniform for EVERYTHING. Basically, they say wear it indoors and outdoors for special functions. Interesting.

Blaze complained, "First of all a scout uniform is VERY expensive. As everyone knows a full uniform with all the accessories is well over $100." In a country where people are willing to spend $150 for an NFL jacket that is a feeble excuse. I live in an area with a lot of enlisted personnel and they live pretty well, driving new SUVs and living in $250,000 houses, so don't give me the money cry. If money is tight, there are plenty of sources for experienced uniforms. I've bought shirts on ebay for as low as $15 and pants as low as $10, including shipping. If you are trying to outfit a troop, there are people who are selling entire lots of shirts that wind up going for less than $10 a shirt. Although I can't find Scout pants to fit me, I find the cry for "easy fit" pants to be somewhat amusing. Think back 30 years when everyone wore pants that fit. We wore jeans that shrunk to fit but had no problem moving in them. It is all what you get used to. Bobo Blanco blathered, "The uniform is not made for backpacking, water skiing, caving, as well as most other activities" First, I found this comment in the 10th edition of the Handbook, "Scouts involved in conservation projects may wear work pants or jeans with their Scout shirts." So alternate pants are approved. In the same book it says, "Wear your complete uniform proudly and correctly at all Scouting events: at patrol and troop meeting, hikes, camps and rallies; . . . and in the backcountry. Green Bar Bill said in the 9th edition of the handbook, ". . .its color and design make the Scout uniform the ideal clothing of the outdoorsman." All of this sounds like BSA thinks that the uniform is good for camping and hiking.

I think that we like night games as well. Back in the early '70s, the military fell out of favor in the US so BSA started going out of its way to downplay any hint of military. For example, it is now prohibited for Scouts to participate in close order drill (marching).

"3. Camo actually adds cost to any piece of clothing," Huh? It is no more expensive to print camo on a piece of fabric than it is to print plaid. "and except for some sources of military surplus (which offers old and often inferior materials) is often as costly or more costly than current clothing available through a variety of retail sources without a camo pattern." Huh (again)? Military surplus = inferior? Maybe if you buy a pair of pants that survived the jungles of Vietnam. Most American mil-surp clothing is contract overruns. Even if you buy used foreign mil-surp, it is usually in good shape because it was issued, worn by one person and then turned in when that person left the service. I can buy new mil-spec BDU pants all day long for less than what a pair of Scout pants costs. Not that I'm a big fan of camo but you really do need to get your facts straight, Bobo Blanco (not that you'll ever see this).

I only have two insignia guides, that was Mike Walton writing who had the three insignia guides. Apparently, there are memos that go out to SEs about policies that are never seen by mere mortals. There was a double secret memo put out by Cub Scouting back in the mid 90s that said that a Pack could opt out of the blue uniform and wear the khaki uniform for all ranks. The problem is that you can't get your hands on those memos.

I don't see what the big deal is with rank insignia. The card is what is proof that you earned it. As a point of reference, when I was a Midshipman, I went to the Navy uniform shop at Norfolk and bought a set of Admiral's stars. I was wearing dungarees so I looked like a Seaman but there was no fuss nor muss. Never did get to wear them but I still have them.

OGE, like many things in BSA, it seems to be double-secret. The memo is refered to at Mike Walton's web site, http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/camo.htm As part of the memorandum, it talks about the Insignia Guide being updated to reflect the emphasis...but I have three copies of the Insignia Guide here in my hotel room, and all three doesn't address "civilian camo" like "hunting gear" even though Mr. Williams' memorandum does address "hunting and military-style clothing and equipment" in the memorandum. He states that "hunting and military-style clothing, combined with or worn instead of the official Boy Scout or Explorer uniform, are not acceptable wear during any Boy Scouting or Exploring activity. Scout Executives are to instruct unit leaders and volunteers that those articles of clothing along with equipment like pistol belts, suspenders and military field gear are not allowed to be worn with official Boy Scouts of America clothing or in the place of BSA uniforms and outdoor clothing." (I wish that someone will dig out that copy and send it to the Chief and tell him to please post in in the new edition of the Insignia Guide.....I think it's pretty clear but it's not out there where everyone can read and go by it....)

I use a fair amount of military equipment because, as you said, it is well made and inexpensive. Fortunately, there are no penalties for breaking the rules. Well, I suppose that they could throw me out of Scouting but that isn't likely. What sort of Army gear do I use? Folding shovel, web belt and suspenders with fanny pack, assorted pouches and an a very large backpack. I don't know of any units that use Army tents. BSA sells big canvas tents that are used at summer camp but most troops have lightweight nylon tents from Eureaka, Coleman or some other company.

Back when Roy Williams was director of the Boy Scout Division, he issued a memo stating that cammo, hunting apparel and military field gear is not allowed to be used in BSA. Of course this means that if you want to use an Army canteen, BSA says "nope."

There used to be a host of books about heroic or adventuresome boys (and girls) out there. Examples that come to mind are all of the various Boy Scout novels, the Border Boys, Hardy Boys (Nancy Drew for the girls), and Tom Swift (Jr and Sr). There were also the heroic/adventure novels that fall into the classics such as Robin Hood, Ivanhoe, King Arthur, Tom Sawyer, Captains Courageous, the Virginian, etc., etc., etc.. Like they did for Tom Sawyer, these books fired my imagination and the imagination of my friends. We'd spend summer days planning how to build a submarine only to discover that our dads would't let weld in the basement. Or we'd build heliographs and attempt to send Morse Code across the park. We zoom about on our bikes pretending that we were a) a squadron of fighters in search of Germans b) calvalry on horseback or c) if we were feeling bad, a motorcycle gang. We'd build armor out of cardboard and whack at each other with broomsticks. I don't see young boys reading these sort of books anymore. What fires their imaginations today?

"I am somewhat curious about the troops who present a neckerchief to the Scout upon achieving First Class or some other milestone such as an overnighter." The probably took their lead from those karate schools that make you "earn" your white belt.

Bobo Blanco opined, "Not all trainers follow the syllabus sad to say. Some teach "their" method, or their "habits" rather than the program." So the trainers in at least two councils were doing things incorrectly? That stretches credibility. "Had I been wrong about the methods national intends for these advancement steps then there would have been no hesitation on national's part to support the decision of the troop,right?" Yeah, sure, you betcha. I think that it is still a matter of the folks at national said, "Well he did the work and it will be a PR nightmare if we enforce the rules. So, let's stretch a point or two and allow it." We are still waiting for chapter and verse that supports your position. Of course you aren't going to see this (snicker, snort, har!) but maybe one of your "friends" (chortle, guffaw) will tell you about it.

Also, doesn't making the Scout wait unitl someone drives to the Council office make him dependant on the strange goings on in some adult's life. "Sorry Bobby, I thought that I was going to get to the Scout shop on Monday but I couldn't because I had to put out a fire at a client's office." I suppose mail is an option. Now that's an idea. Mail it in but that still delays things for too long. Let's say that Jimmy has his BoR Saturday night at a Campout and the next troop meeting is Monday. Mailing the report Sunday night doesn't do any good and because of work obligations, no on can drive to the Scout shop on Monday.

When I was young, the goal of most people was to look neat and tidy. Now it seems that the goal of most people is to look as slovenly as possible.

"Even the Eagle badges were right there on the same shelf. I always wondered if they asked for some proof for those." Not long ago, I was at the Scout Shop and a man asked for an Eagle Medal to replace his that was lost. The clerk simply reached into a drawer, pulled one out and handed it to him. I later commented to the clerk that I had assumed that there would be some sort of procedures to be followed to get a replacement Eagle medal and the response was, "Nah."

" As I said, we all sincerely thought our interpretation of the Eagle Palm requirement for Gold and up was correct - three months must elapse after the last Palm was AWARDED (ie - BOR day) before a boy is eligible for the next." That's not a difficult interpretation to make since that is exactly what the "Boy Scout requirements 2004" handbook says. As I said before, I'm waiting for chapter and verse from a printed handbook that is readily available at the Scout Shop. I don't have a video library and even if I did, watching a video tape when one has a question about policy is not very practical.