Fat Old Guy

Based on my experience as an observer (my daughther is a Girl Scout) I would say that the methods of Girl Scouting include Paperwork Lack of cooperation Infighting Backstabbing More paperwork At least that's what I see on the adult end.

Even though the uniform is not required, if it is worn, it should be worn properly.

"I suppose the CO could be given a report about how their leader did at training? But to my mind that seems very juvenile." I wouldn't be juvenile if the goal was to not just have leaders who sit and snooze but leaders who have a grasp of the material.

Oh dear, the illiterate are calling me names. I am hurt. I am wounded. F Dude, you really don't have a grasp of the program, that much is obvious. Maybe the problem is that you don't understand English. You still haven't been able to use BSA literature to refute the statement that a uniform is not a requirement. Please play again later when you actually know what you're talking about.

Satan just called, he's concerned about the weather down there because Bob White and I agree on something.

"Dan, I look at the roughly 50 more hours of training a ASM has to take just to get a trained patch, and I cringe." I don't think that it's enough. There are too many grey areas and not enough centralized information.

I read about this a couple years ago and actually saw one at the University of Scouting (by a strange coincidence, the Scouter wearing it fell down an elevator shaft . . . just kidding . . . maybe)

I've heard a number of SMs say, "We tell the parents that if they aren't willing to be involved that they had better find a new troop." Sounds good, doesn't it? Get the parents involved. Have lots of help. Right? Nah. Don't think so. Quite often, the kid with the parents who aren't involved and aren't willing to be involved are the ones who need Scouting the most. There are Scouts in my troop (yes, my troop) whose parents I wouldn't want involved with the troop beyond bringing soda to Christmas party. These kids need to see that there are people out there that care about them and they need positive role models. Scouting may be the best place for that.

EagleDad said, " Proof of that is comparing older leadership handbooks to todays leadership handbooks. Im talking older than 30 years ago." Danger, danger Will Robinson! Reference to old handbook will bring about castigation from a pompous bookthumper who will remain unnamed. Bob White said, "The biggest hurdle to successful training, and successful unit operation for that matter, is not the content of the training syllabus or the resources of scouting. " Alas, if the training syllabus and training materials bite the big one, then the biggest heart isn't going to do a bit of good.

"Maybe they don't feel compelled to buy the pants because they heard some numbskull say there is no "guideline" to wear the uniform." Are you a native speaker of English? Do you have a high school diploma? I don't think that anyone has said that there is no "guideline" to wear the uniform. We've all stated that there is no requirement to wear a uniform. Big difference. However, leading by example works. The last SM only wore a uniform shirt that was a size too small and was often heard to say that the uniform was silly and would roll his ideas when uniform inspections were mentioned. Only about 50% of the Scouts would show up in uniform for anything, including troop meetings. Green pants were unheard of. We have a new SM who wears the complete uniform from the socks up. Now, I would say that 50% of the Scouts have uniform pants with another 25% wearing green pants from Old Navy or a similar source. It is very rare to see a Scout out of uniform at any event.

"Excuse me Mr. Persnickety. Youre the one making the claim that BSA has a guideline that says no uniform is required. That erroneous claim is totally off base and anyone pushing that point of view is not supporting the aims and methods of Scouting." FScouter, FScouter, FScouter, what will we do with you? Two people have provided citations that state that a uniform is not required to be a Scout but yet you don't believe it. If you require the uniform, do you also require advancement? What if you have a Scout that simply doesn't want to progress past 2nd Class? He's happy just going camping and tramping about in the woods? Do you kick him out of the troop? Do you force him to advance? What about a Scout who doesn't like camping? He made it to First Class but never wants to sleep outside again. Do you make him go camping? The methods are not requirements. The methods are tools. The methods are exactly that, methods, ways to reach a goal but they aren't requirements.

"It has always been about 7 hours of classroom followed by a weekend outdoor course to learn skills and operate as a patrol" Interesting. I went through about 20 hours of class room followed by a Saturday and a full weekend course. We also operated as a patrol for the entire two months. Eagle73 said, "I guess if you have never been involved in Scouting, the training is useful. There needs to be a way to be able to validate the training." When I went through training about 1/3 of the class (49 participants) were Eagle Scouts, including two members of my patrol. None expressed any dissatifaction with the material (I later served on training staff and was privvy to the course evaluations). We have a couple new ASMs who are Eagles and went through the new course and both have stated that it was a waste of time. Interesting, very interesting. Eamonn defended the BSA with, "The use of the Flip Chart or Power Point is used . . . " The flip chart or its modern analog are used because you don't have people who know how to teach. Staring at a screen for four hours and listening to a monotone speaker READ the screen to you isn't training. It's boredom. I will agree with OGE that testing should be part of the training to make sure that the attendees get what they were supposed to get. In their instructor training material, the NRA says something to the effect that learning is the change in knowledge, skills and attitude. Knowledge and skills are the easy part to teach. The attitude is the difficult part. If a Scouter lacks the attitude to implement the program the way that it is written, all of the classroom sessions in the world won't help. Anyway, flip charts aren't training. Training is doing in a controlled environment. BTW, I've been told that the Federal Government now discourages the use of the term "Flip Chart" because "Flip" is a pejorative term for Philipenos (sp?).

At a district event I saw A Scout wearing TWO position patches on his left sleeve A Scout wearing a Den Chief patch on his right sleeve A Scout wearing THREE religious medal square knots An adult wearing a temporary patch on both pockets AND his right sleeve.

NPR? Every time I listen to NPR they sound as left as Algore.

FScouter, either you've been taking lessons from Bob White in the art of deliberately miscontruing statements or you're a rock. BSA says a uniform is not required. How much clearer can it be?

FScouter ranted in his confusion, " Method number 8 of the 8 BSA methods of Scouting is THE UNIFORM." Sounds like you are the one who doesn't understand the program. Methods are not requirements. Just as you cannot force a Scout to advance and you can't force him to hike and camp, you can't require the uniform. What part of BSA's statement that a uniform isn't required has slipped past your comprehension? dan said, "It is to bad that leaders have twisted this to mean that the uniform is not part of the BSA." Who has said that it isn't part of the BSA?

Flip charts aren't really training, are they? When I went through Scoutmaster training, we learned most, if not all, of the methods by doing. We were broken into patrols and most knew no one in their patrol. We had to get to know each other and elect a patrol leader and have patrol meetings. We had patrol cheers, neckerchiefs, and flags. We went outdoors spent three days in the sunshine and rain. We may not have had rank advancement but we worked to earn ribbons for our flag. We learned to work together and to use each other's strengths and so we grew as people. We learned to lead and to allow others to lead. We may have all been adults but we had role models in the training staff. Lastly, we were all uniformed. We were all there because we wanted to provide the ideal Scouting program. That's how I learned the methods.

"What is wrong with my explanation?" It has nothing to do with anything that I said. "To anyone who understands the rules of debate, you look quite foolish." "Rules" for debating are for weenies who can't get dates.

I live in a fairly affluent area, median income of about a $gazillion and we have people who drive up to the troop meetings in the $40,000 SUVs and complain about the cost of Scouting and then tell you about their cruise over spring break. I always find it interesting that families have no problem paying for cell phones for their kids (Hey, it's only $10 a month) or extra digital cable drops for their kids (hey, it's only $10 a month) or weekly haircuts to keep the buzz cut short (Hey, it's only $10 a month) but won't shell out $35 a year for Scout pants.

"There is no guideline that says the uniform is not required." BP himself said that lack of a uniform should not be a barrier to the Scouting experience. Historically, BSA has adopted the same stance. In the 5th edition of the Handbook (p. 50), it says, "You do not have to have a uniform to be a Scout . . ." In no later edition of any handbook do I find a comment stating that a uniform is required.

So now we won't have little guys in oversized t-shirts, we'll have little guys in even more oversized blue shirts.

I'd be overjoyed if our Patrols met twice a week. Heck, I'd dance a jig if they met once a week.

Beaver Guy is following the Bob White addendum to the Scout Law, "A Scout is snide."

"Yeah, real funny smart guy. Remember when you assume, FOG, well, it's just you." So what is it that you mean? I'm not the one making disparaging comments about enlisteds and trailers. As for having the Michael Moore DVD collection, you really haven't picked up too much about me have you?

" Requiring a uniform is certainly not in conflict with any part of BSA policies and guidelines," Sure it is, it is in conflict with the guideline that says that a uniform is not required.