Fat Old Guy

I've stated before that I've never bought a pair of genuine BSA pants because the rise was enough and I felt that the pants were falling off me. I also didn't think that the quality was worth $45 and I didn't want the elastic expando waist. Imagine my joy when I noticed in the "clearance" section of the catalog that they had the old style pants in "Long" sizes. Not just that but they are only $25. That sounded too good to be true so I called up and ordered a few pair. Why a few? Until you know how a company's pants fit, it is usually best to bracket your size. My new pants arrived today. The big brown van dropped off a big brown box with BSA markings. Oh boy. I pulled out my ever present pocket knife and cut the tape on the box and pulled out a pair of pants. Yep. My Size. Alright! I pulled on my new pants, thinking about how sharp I'd look at the next meeting. No joy. :-( The rise isn't enough. I really don't think that it is any different than the rise on the regular trousers. The danged things are barely hanging on my hip bones and feel like they are going to slide right off. Rats!

I could see me now at the Scout Shop asking for a copy of the "Uniform and Insignia Guide." There's no such book. We have the Insignia Guide." "No, a guy on the internet refers to it all the time. Check your publications catalog." An argument ensues and I get thrown out and banned for life.

Morals are beliefs supported by actions. Not visiting brothels doesn't make a man moral if the reason that he doesn't go is because he's broke. I was always taught that good deeds alone weren't enough to get you into heaven and neither was faith. Good deeds, faith, and repentence are all required.

" If the BSA was coed and 17 year-old boys shared tents with 14/15 year-old girls, do you think seduction and/or rape would be a rare event or a common event? I'm not sure how many rapes would occur, but I guarantee you that those girls would experience many unwanted advances. " How about how many boys would experience unwanted advances. Girls are pretty randy today.

In another thread, OGE mentioned Venture Patrols and the confusion created by the creation of Venturing as a Program. I'd like to know why BSA chose to confuse the public when Career Exploring was spun off to LFL. Many if not most adults alive today have heard about Exploring. They know that it is a Boy Scout program for older kids. Now, Venturing has to re-educate the public that Venturing is the Boy Scout program for older kids, "sorta-kinda like Exploring used to be." Why didn't they come up with a new name for the Police and Fire Explorers (and who ever else went off with LFL) and leave Exlporing with BSA.

I am still wondering if the book that you refer to as the "Uniform and Insignia Guide" is the book that I have titled "Insignia Guide 2002-2004" (#33066C) or if there is a book out there that I don't have.

OGE, I take it that you've ruled out surgery. If I may ask, why?

"Dear old Fat Guy, Old Fat Guy! Them's fightin' words in my part of the country. "what are the mistakes? " I was leaving that as an exercise for the student :-) but since you asked: Capitol is the building. Capital is the city. The council is National Capital Area Council. The way to remember is that the "O" mimics the shape of the rotunda. Den Chief, a simple transposition of letters. eW all do it. ;-) "anything" is one word. "Backpacing," is that a new sport in which you walk backwards? :-o Class is ended, go in peace.

"1. The Glossary section of the Venturing Leader Guide (look under "uniform"), and a better source" Don't have that. "2. The Venturing section of the Uniform and Insignia Guide. Look for the paragraph on shoulder loops." I have the "Insignia Guide," are you speaking of a different book. "Shoulder loops, green ribbon NO. 00678, Venturer and Venturing adult, on shoulder epaulets." "Shoulder epaultes" a bit redundant, eh? One cannot have epaulets on the legs or buttocks. I didn't see the bit that you mentioned at first. I then realized that I had pulled my '99-'01 copy of the Insignia Guide off the shelf. "BTW, it bans wearing green shoulder loops on the khaki shirt, not the kahki shirt per se. Also, adults can still wear this combo. Call it a shoulder loop loophole. " Last year Mike Walton (Settummanque) mentioned on rec.scouts.usa that adults could no longer wear the khaki shirt in Venturing. Mike has said a bunch about Venturing shirts and loops over the years. As you can see, every year the policies seem to change. If you don't know Mike's writings, he has a very interesting web site and has held just about every position in Scouting and has earned just about every award there is. His knowledge is encyclopedic but he is never pedantic or arrogant. 8/30/99 The BSA's first advisory on the Venturing program says that the uniform for VENTURERS and their adult leaders IS TO BE the kelly green shirts with green shoulder loops and the "Venturing BSA" strip. I believe that the Venturing Reference Guide also states that same item. Since then, the BSA's Venturing Division has relaxed the policy on wearing the "khakitan" shirt by ADULT VENTURING leaders, and some Councils are permitting their ADULTS (only) to wear the khakitan shirt with the dark green shoulder loops in the place of or in addition to the kelly green Venturing shirts (which I personally think are cool as get-out, being a former Exploring leader and member!). This is because many Venturing leaders are also Scouters on the District or Council level in addition to their other program duties.... but ALL YOUTH MEMBERS are to wear the kelly green shirts!! This is to resolve confusion between youth members of Boy/Varsity Scouting units which are ALL MALE and Venturing units which are MALES AND FEMALES. (and to sell the official uniform!!) On 6/3/01 Third, NO, they CANNOT wear the khaki-tan shirt with green shoulder loops. The khaki-tan shirt should ONLY be worn by Boy Scouts/Varsity Scouts and by ALL ADULT VOLUNTEERS AND PROFESSIONALS. Why?? For one thing, the various square knot and other insignia (position emblems, interpreter strips, etc.) are ONLY being made with the khaki-tan background and borders, which presents a real clash against the kelly green Venturing shirt. The BSA is NOT considering creating versions with kelly green backgrounds similarily to what they did in the 50s and 60s for the old Exploring shirts. Venturing volunteers will be told that they are to wear ONLY the khaki-tan shirts and will be discouraged from wearing the kelly green shirts (as that shirt identifies YOUTH MEMBERS in the same way that the Cub Scout blue shirt IDs youth members). Venturing adults wear the kelly green shoulder loops with the khaki-tan shirt. On 5/25/02 >I was at a recent district training event >and many of the staff were wearing very >strange items. There was the one >person wearing a green venturing shirt (as I read the book, Vernturing leaders still >wear the khaki shirt). Nope. Venturing leaders wear the kelly green Venturing shirt. Venturing leaders can't wear the khaki-tan shirt with green shoulder loops anymore.

I looked at your profile and it's time to play crusty curmudgeon again. There are at least four spelling errors in your profile. :-) We have a Scout who outsnores any of the adults. Oddly, none of his tentmates complain.

Yak Herder: I should DQ myself but I won't. Running lights. That's pretty good. If BSA insists that Sea Scout Scouters wear loops, then BSA will have to start making a crappy white shirt. Where does it explictly state that Venturers may not wear the khaki shirt? I'm also wondering why Venturing has that square patch that goes on the right sleve that says, "Venturing, BSA." Don't they think that people will know that they are Venturers from the "Venturing, BSA" tag on the front of the shirt?

I'm going to play teacher and crusty curmudgeon for a second. Check your spelling. It took be quite a while to decipher "attendinse" into "a tendency." We old people didn't grow up with "magic spelling" so our brains don't work that way. First, you don't want or need a lot of parents helping. It took more than a few years for my son's troop to figure that out. As SPL, it it you and your staff that are supposed to be working with the new guys. Too many parents, even those that have been through training, think that they are in charge and walk around telling the Scouts what to do, instead of guiding them and letting them make mistakes. Why? Because we're parents and we like to see things done the right way. Now for the knives. When you say, "playing with knives," do you mean that they are playing "mumblety-peg" (a fun game but not one that is PC), are they practicing knife fighting techniques or are they trying to whittle every stick that they find? If these guys don't have their Totin' Chips (not Chit), they shouldn't have a knife with them unless it is for instruction purposes so they can earn their Totin' Chips. If they are exhibiting unsafe behavior with their knives and have their Totin' Chips then they need a refresher. What we do is confiscate the knife and make the offender write an essay, a proper essay with all the right parts, about knife handling. They have to to do this the day of the offense. Hand them a sheet of paper, a pencil and tell them that the answers are in the handbook. That usually solves the problem because no one wants to miss out on after dinner fun on a campout to write an essay. If the essay is acceptable, the knife is returned with the admonition to go forth and transgress no more.

A Cracker Jack sailor suit with shoulder boards? Davey Jones will turn over in his grave. Actually, what I'd like to see is that the shoulder loop system be changed around to make the shoulder loops match the service star circles. The service star circles are the historic colors related to the different programs and, as I understand, the tassles worn with knee socks matched them. So we'd have Cub Scouts with gold loops Boy Scouts with green loops Venturers with red loops District could stay with grey loops National could switch to white loops. However, this will never happen.

" Maybe we should require them to purchase and wear official scout bathing suits" Don't think that there is such a thing. As for fashion statements with swim trunks, I don't see too many young men making a fashion statement of any sort today. Some that has struck me as odd is that many of my Scouts wear their underwear with their swim trunks. They say, "it's not underwear, they're boxer shorts" but as the bard said, "Skivvies by any other name . . ." I'm told that they do this so they can hang their trunks even lower and let their skivvies stick out of the top.

"Thirty years at my YMCA if you were caught skinny-dipping you would have been thrown out of the Y and likely arrested." Sounds like an uptight place.

"I believe the assertion was that he liked to watch naked boys play." Back then boys went skinny dipping. If you are watching them play, you are, perforce, watching naked boys play. Thirty years ago, I belong to the YMCA. The normal attire in the pool was nothing. There'd be kids and businessmen all swimming lap or cavorting in the buff. Oddly, by today's standards, no one thought anything about it. Packsaddle. Quip?

" While my boys understand that their patches can be placed on their swim trunks, they are completely opposed to such." Are they embarassed by being Boy Scouts and don't want to advertise it to the world at the pool?

Oddly, it doesn't go on the uniform. The Insignia Guide specifies that it goes on the left side of the swim trunks with the Mile Swim and Boadsailing awards. Although the Guide doesn't say, the customary place for the awards is on the left leg of the trunks.

"On the down side, I do have some concerns that when the Leader who signed up as a Tiger Parent and has stuck it out as a Den Leader with their son sees this, they might think that they do not have the skills to carry on. " These are the same parents that say "I don't need any training." I'm not a camper. Before I got involved in Scouting the only thing close to camping that I'd ever done was a couple training exercises with some Marines where we slept rolled up in our ponchos and ate C-rations. (yum!). So, off to Boy Scout leader training I went. Now I can build a fire and start one with flint and steel. I can cook in a tin can, on a stick or in a Dutch Oven. I can pitch a tent at night and I can make an improvised shelter out of a trash bag (also usefull for making a solar still). Am I a great outdoorsman? No, I'd still rather be sitting on the veranda, watching the sun go down while sipping a mint julip but I can get by. The key is to get these people to training so they can learn what they don't know.

"Well, if you believe Jeal's biography of Baden-Powell (it insinuates that B-P was probably/possibly a repressed homosexual)" As I understand it, the evidence is that B-P liked to watch boys play and that he didn't sleep with his wife. Neither is that unusual. Think about it. How many adult men like to watch boys play? I don't have number but I'd argue most. They like watching Little League baseball, high school basketball, football and rave about the athleticism exhibited. Do these guys want to watch girls' basketball where cute teenagers with ponytails are running up and down the court? Nope. Sleep with the wife? I know more than a few men who have been exiled from the masterbedroom for various reasons. I had an employee who had his own bedroom because he didn't like to go to be until 2 AM and his wife went to bed at 9 PM. She got tired of being woken up so he went down the hall. I know men who snore badly and have been exiled. What about you guys? Do you enjoy watching your Scouts play a game of capture the flag? What does that say about you?

"It's the adult leadership. Parent want what is best for their kids based off what they know about the program." It's both but the adult leadership allowed it to happen but that's probably because the adult leadership is usually the parents. I don't know if all parent really want "what's best for their kids." They often claim and even think that want what's best for their kids but often what they want is what will make them look good. Let's looks at the sports fanatics who push their kids constantly to perform in sports. The drive doesn't come from the kid, it comes from the parent, "No! You cannot go to that picnic, you need to practice." All too often, the adults leaders are the ones who have set the lofty goals for their kids and are pushing their kids to meet those goals. "No, you can't go to that picnic. You have to work on your radio merit badge project." How many of these parents are really doing it for the kids? How much of it is for their own egos?

Scoutmom, Don't deny yourself the pleasure of Summer Camp or camping trips, the opportunity to study "boyology," as Baden-Powell called it. The trick is to not be a parent while you are there. It is a difficult task but it can be done. First, you don't want to hover around your son. Secondly, you need to tell your son that he isn't supposed to be hanging around the adult area unless it is pressing business. At summer camp, some days my son would save me a seat next to him and other days he wouldn't. No big deal. It takes some doing but it can be done.

I just did a Google search on "Dutch Oven" an was rewarded with over 18,000 hits. There are even "Dutch Oven" societies such as the International Dutch Oven Society and Lone Star Dutch Oven Society.

"When you are 45 you won't remember or care how you got your Eagle". Untrue. There are many problems with the system, a major one being the parents. Eagle has become the goal of Scouting to many parents. That's why we hear things like, "my son won't get his Driver's License until he makes Eagle." The kid didn't make Eagle before something pulled him away from Scouts. So what? Is it the end of the Earth? If becomming an Eagle is important to the kid, he'll make time for it just like he finds time for his girlfriend and soccer. Our committee recently listened to two Eagle project presentations. One was from a Scout who has been fast tracked by his mother since day one. The project had the stamp of the mother on every aspect of it. The other was from a Scout who is involved in other stuff than Scouts and vanishes for months at a time to do school plays. His project write-up looked like it had been written by a 14 year old BUT it showed that he was involved in the idea. When questioned about his project idea, he spoke passionately about it and his reasons for wanting to do it. Big difference there. Why can't parents just let their kids enjoy the program and only help the kid when he really needs it, like checking to make sure that they packed clean underwear for camp.

" For his reading is that all shooting of any kind must in a approved range." I'd like to see that big book. I think that you'd be hard pressed to call firing a canon loaded with just a powder charge, "shooting." If that was the case, then a cap gun or starter pistol would fall under the same rules. I have a friend who is in the North-South Skirmish Association, a group of guys (mostly) who dress up in Civil War uniforms and other period garb and shoot period guns including pistols, rifles, canons and mortars. Unlike regular re-enactors, the NSSA shoot with projectiles and attempts to hit targets. I told my friend about this situation and it baffled him. His spin was that even if the wadding was jammed in their as tight as could be, it should have blown out long before the canon ruptured as the brass is much, much stronger than any wadding could be. My buddy is going to bring this up at the next meeting of his battery and see if anyone has any ideas. Not that their ideas will have any official meaning, they'll just be interesting.