evmori

dan, I was serious because you posted "First would be the bad leader SM would tell the patrol member to build a fire and than the SM would go get the tinder, firewood, matches and the scout would be right behind him mimicking his every move. Second would be the person that follows the BSA AIMS or follows the teachings of the Bible, etc.. I do not see how the words leader and follower go together unless bad is in front of leader." What I get from this is a bad leader follows the BSA AIMS and teachings of the bible! I hope I am incorrect. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Looked up the word follower and found the following two definitions among others One who subscribes to the teachings or methods of another an ordinary person who accepts the leadership of another So dan, a bad leader follows the aims of the BSA? And so does a bad follower? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 (This message has been edited by evmori)

If the rest of the Troop is wearing them then I say yes. If not, then no. Uniform also means the same. Please pass along condolences from my Troop to his family. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10

Not at all Bob. I agreed with what OGE posted. I still feel the same way. Don't assume and take two Tylenols. OGE, As for Bobby Knight - he is successful but I don't know if you waould classify his as a good leader. You don't need to be a good leader to be succseeful. And Custer well I think speaks for himself. Patton on the other hand might have been a good follower while at West Point. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Bob, Following can be accomplished by learning and learning can be accomplished by following. The words are interchangeable. OGE, All good examples! Were the people in your examples good followers prior to being leaders? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

And these immature kids followed what you taught them and became good leaders. It's a shame you ASSUMED I didn't think of this group. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

Barry, Great post to a great question! Bob, Since you never answered my question, I'll ask again - Do you have any examples of poor followers being good leaders? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

OGE, I would concur. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Actually what it seems like here is we have one Scouter who fails to see the point! We as Scouters follow the Oath & Law. We also follow the rules & regs of the BSA. We are followers. The Scouts in our units see that we follow the Oath & Law along with the rules & regs. If we as adult leaders don't follow the Law, Oath, rules & regs how can we expect the Scouts in our unit to follow them. We set the example. The Scouts follow our example. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Let's try this. Billy Boy Scout is a member of a patrol. Billy never does what his PL leads him to do. Now Bill has been elected PL. And he his patrol won't do what he leads them to. Billy doesn't understand why! One patrol member tells him " You didn't do what the PL led us to do when you were a patrol member so why should we do what you lead us to do?" Kid's got a good point. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

0 years as a youth 15 as an adult Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Fat Old Guy, LIke I said, That was a fact when I was in college many moon ago. It probably still holds true for crimes like Robbery, murder, etc. I don't think fraud was as popular then as it is now. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

You don't follow the BSA program, Bob? And no it doesn't blow my whole theory. When I was in college many noon ago I took some criminology courses. One fact we were taught was all adult offenders were juvenile offenders but not all juvenile offenders become adult offenders. Same theory allies. All good leaders were good followers but not all good followers become good leaders. In fact, they might never become leaders at all! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Bob, You follow the BSA program, right? I think you even posted you did. That makes you a follower. You want others to follow the BSA program so you want them to follow the way you do things. This isn't rocket science! And no one ever said this is the only way a person can be a good leader. It is one way a preson can be a good leader coupled with others. I would say all good leaders were good followers but not all good followers are good leaders. There is more to leadership than that. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

I'm not speaking for everyone else but I have never meant the term "follower" to be a bad term. To me a follower in a patrol is everyone but the PL. The patrol follows the direction of the PL who follows the direction of the SPL who follow the direction of the SM. Nothing derogatory. "I see "follower" as members of the patrol who we develop as followers of the program. If the scouts I serve feel they are following me then I have done my job incorrectly. If they follow my example of scouting I have succeeded." Following you IS following your example of Scouting. It's the same thing! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

OGE, Sounds like a good idea to me. It could take up a lot of time. Maybe do this after a 1st pass at the project by the committee. It might not be needed on all projects. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

1st off why is this thread so wide? Makes it hard to read & I have a 21" monitor! NWScouter hit it on the head. If a patrol member never listens to his PL how - when he is elected PL - does he expect the patrol to listen to him? It won't happen with kids. Adults maybe but not kids. Bob, You seem to think this is totally wrong. DO you have any examples of a poor follower being an excellent leader? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Interesting. So anyone who is a commissioner can't be a leader in a unit with the exception of a committee member or COR? Why are these positions different from the other adult leader positions? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

"Actually, if the most important thing in a young man's life is membership in the BSA, I'd be a little worried about him!" Huh???? Please explain? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Those who can't follow will be ineffective leaders. I don't think you can expect people to follow a person as a leader if that person didn't do the same when they were led. I think Adrianvs and NWScouter put it best. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

There is nothing that states each unit MUST have a NSP and all new Scouts MUST earn 1st Class in their 1st year. These are recommendations. And if they work for your unit great. BUt if they don't, it doesn't mean you aren't "Scouting"! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Good example OGE. But I would submit that is the exception & not the norm. The reason we don't allow Gameboys, Walkmans & the like is we feel the guys can use these at home anytime they want. We want them to enjoy the outdoors. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

scoutldr is correct. Gender doesn't apply when talking about adults. The only time it does is cabin camping & making sure there are separate facilities for both genders. Glad to say we have never had this problem. Since you can't get the parents to attend a parents meeting how about holding one either before or after a Court of Honor? I would hope mom and/or dad would show up to see their Johnny receive awards! Then you can go over the problems & solicit help. You might be suprised at what happens! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

Twocubdad, I don't disagree he should be removed from office. He violated a court order. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10

Fat Old Guy, I have a Woodbadge song book that has Stairway to Heaven & Hotel California in it! Let's all hum a few bars of MC5's "Kick out the Jams"!