epalmer84

Miki101- I have re-written the West article through the first three sections. The last three sections are actually the original article and will disappear when this is done. I mainly edit this at work during lunch, so it goes a bit slowly. I usually start of my Wikipedia day by reverting vandalism and good-meaning folks who add stuff that just is not right; you would not believe some of what gets written about the Scout handshake. I welcome any specific comments about the West article; or dive in and edit it yourself! I have more appreciation of West at this point. I think B-P was mostly critical of West's bureaucratic organization. Sir Percy Everett discussed the BSA organization with B-P and found it commendable for the conditions of American society. From what I can tell, West was autocratic and a micro-manager, but he really did care about the boys. I suspect he was jealous of Beard and his rapport with youth. I have to agree with baden in that Beard and Seton would have had great programs, but they would have been more local and more tied to their personalities; I'm not sure of the sustainability of such programs, but that is speculation. Perhaps someone (Harry Turtledove?) could write an alternative history of the BSA with a POD of Seton staying in the organization. As Miki101 said, get the Rowan book for a really good read on West.

I'm re-reading "To Do My Best: James E. West and the History of the Boy Scouts of America". I'm slowly re-working the West article on Wikipedia, Boyce and Seton are next, then I need to find more stuff on Beard. I got sidetracked by John Colter- In a few months it will be the 200 year anniversary of his trek to Yellowstone, and it would be nice if I could get his birthplace to recognize him in some manner. Ed

Here is the BSA fact sheet for climbing: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewthread.asp?threadID=157668 This discusses Topping Out and the National Camping School. Ed

Climb on Safely is a management course, not a technical course. As far as I know, BSA Camp School is held at the regional level. Your council should not only have the information, but should be kicking you out the door to get there. Ed

I just checked- this one is already listed at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_popular_culture Ed

Boot Hans Zeiger's articles from BSALegal.org. In my opinion, he is trying to set himself up as the Rush Limbaugh of the BSA. Ed

Lots of good thoughts here. The big thing is to head off money issues before it creates rifts. You do need some sort of oversight- the CO should be doing this in some manner, as technically the money belongs to them. Our sister pack folded when the CM started "borrowing" from the funds. We later found he had kited checks all over town. There was a lot of acrimony and we lost a number of Cub Scouts. "Luckily" personality issues had caused the pack to split and form a new pack that is still running strong. Ed

Try adhesive remover, found in the cleaning supplies section of your favorite big box store. Apply heat with a hair dryer and scrape with a plastic putty knife. We use a lot of Heat 'n Bond for projects, using a Singer steam press. A while back the wife forgot to put things together right and ended up with the Heat 'n Bond stuck to the iron plate. That little technique worked like a charm. I do suggest you try it on a hidden spot, like the linoleum under the fridge. Ed

Andy over at the NetCommish has a very good article on this: http://netcommish.com/AskAndy95.asp Ed

1987... I was on my second tour in Germany, and was the Scoutmaster of Troop 114 for the second time. I think I finally made Ordeal about then (after getting tapped out in 1975). Did that at Kandersteg in Switzerland. Ed

Luther Gulick was on the BSA Committee of Organization in the fall of 1910, with Seton, Robinson and Livingston and others. Gulick was also the president of the Playground Association of America. He recommended his secretary, James E West to be the managing secretary of the BSA. West took the job for six months that turned into 32 years and retitled his position to Chief Scout Executive. In 1911, West helped Gulick when the Camp Fire Girls were formed, and Camp Fire was promoted in BSA publications. West never liked the Girl Scouts and always considered Camp Fire Girls to be the sister program of the BSA. Ed Ed

We don't have any major populations like that here in our area, but I have lived in the Middle East. Things are very different over there. I see some very good ideas here. I really like the food ideas- nothing pulls folks together like good food. You might also try to approach their religious leaders and let them know about the religious emblems program. Ensure they know the programs can be used for any of their youth, not just Scouts. In turn, these folks may have some good ideas you could implement. Writing style mode: The BSA uses the term jamboree only for the world and national jamborees. Eamonn: You might want to check out Francis Parater, an Eagle Scout who has been nominated for canonization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_J._Parater ASM915: You are thinking of the Scouting ... Vale la pena! Service Award for service to Hispanic American/Latino youth and the Asian American Spirit of Scouting Service Award for service to Asian American youth. There is also the The Spirit of Scouting Award for "exceptional and unusual service to young people in hard-to-reach communities over a long period of time." Ed

Homeschoolmama: It is my understanding that the BSA made overtures to both the Girl Scouts and the Camp Fire Girls in the 70s or 80s and was rebuffed. (The Camp Fire Girls were started by some of the folks involved in the formation of the BSA and were heavily promoted by the BSA; James West considered Campfire Girls to be the sister program of the BSA.) Frankly, given the philosophical and political gulf between the BSA and the Girl Scouts, I do not see any merge in the future. scoutldr: I was invited to a Gold Award ceremony recently and talked to some of the leaders afterwards. They mentioned that some of the local camps were being sold because they were too primitive (no flushies). Ed

As scoutldr noted, he should have a gear list. The Ordeal team will take care of him if the weather turns bad. I did mine in the snow with just a sleeping bag and tarp and had no problems. Ed

The First Class rank pin (00017) you referenced is noted on ScoutStuff.org as "worn by youth only." If you take a look at the Boy Scout expedition hat, it shows the adult universal hat pin (50150). Per the Insignia Guide (page 3), First Class rank pin (00017) is worn on the campaign hat and expedition hat by youth, and adult universal hat pin (50150) is worn by adults. Ed

Our troop has elected to take money instead of prizes for popcorn sales; frankly, most of the prizes are crap. I would expect that Cub Scouts might want the prize, but most of them well understand the value of money. I'm not a fan of drawings or lotteries in Scouting. Any prize should be awarded for performance. I do like the newsletter idea- this pushes them to do something useful and it rewards the den- this makes them a bit of a better team. I guess my views of prizes go back to when I was a Scout and we sold Tom Watt. I just couldn't push myself to sell something I felt was a bunch of junk. I guess that's why I'm not in sales. Ed

I would go with the card. A Scout-like card would be nice- either hand-made or done up on the computer. A photo insert would be a nice touch. Ed

Dehydrated has its ups and downs- the food is lighter, but you have to carry the water. It is usually hot on the river, so you either need coolers or foods that do not require cooling. Canned foods work well on a canoe trip where you can spread the load. We use five gallon buckets (like paint buckets) with screw on lids- these seal tight. You can get the buckets from many fast food places. The lids: http://www.pyrosupplies.com/shop/page/category/Category/904337e061b775609fe74f04d336b4f8.html Spaghetti is easy- pasta, canned sauce and the big pot from the cook kit. Peas or corn on the side. There are a lot of retort meals available now- the precooked stuff in the plastic pouches. There are a lot in the rice section that can be used as sides for meals. These can be a bit pricey, but I have found them in the discount stores at good prices. Breakfast- dehydrated hash browns with cheese and precooked bacon; add some eggs if you have a cooler and don't forget the ketchup. Breakfast burritos are good. I have taken precooked sausage patties, microwaved them to get the grease off, then dice them up and run them through the dehydrator- these work well in the hash browns or burritos. Ditto onions and green peppers. I dehydrate quite a bit of stuff for camping. Ed

The Order of the Arrow is part of the Boy Scout membership division (as are Varsity scouts), thus OA elections may be held only in troops and teams. http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-33.htm The lodge flap may be worn by OA members on any uniform. http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-48.htm http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-35.htm Historically: OA elections were allowed in Explorer posts, but women were not allowed to be elected. [OA Handbook, 1986] In 1988, the BSA opened the Scoutmaster position to women. OA membership was opened to female Boy Scout leaders in 1999. Venturing was introduced in 1998, and the OA soon ruled that elections could not be held in crews (there may have been a some elections early on before this was clarified.) This would also apply to Sea Scout ships, as Sea Scouting is part of the Venturing division. There is a movement towards a Venturing service society called the Corps of Discovery. It is in its infancy, but it is used in some councils. The emblem is a patch worn on the right pocket flap. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/corpsofdiscovery/ As to why National closed elections in crews and ships, I have no definitive answers. Why Venturers can continue to work towards Eagle without being in a troop or team, but can't be elected to the OA, I cannot explain. Ed(This message has been edited by epalmer84)

BrentAllen is correct- the adult patrol is a good method of team building. I find it especially important when a Scout ages out and registers as an adult. That young man has to rebuild his identity in some ways, and the adult patrol is a good way to do that. Eamonn- Unregistered adults who come on trips do so as guests of the Old Vikings. Again, this is a method of building identity. The Scouts go do their thing, while the parents get a view of what the leaders do and don't do. This is especially important with those parents who have just crossed over from Cub Scouting. If a parent camps with a patrol, they tend to take charge, and the patrol leader tends to let it happen. If something happens, the parents first instinct is to deal directly because they often do not understand the chain of leadership. They want to parent, not lead. I think that those parents who do camp with us are more likely to become a registered leader. The have more fun drinking coffee and telling stories about the old days without the youth around to get bored. If we have some task such as an activity setup, they are glad to join an assistant Scoutmaster and help. orennoah- I think you mean "grup" (a contraction of grownup). Is it bad that I knew off the top of my head that the Star Trek episode was "Miri"? Ed

Scouter hat: The BSA has only a few drill-type commands (Scouts salute and too). Other than what is in the handbook, there is really nothing about saluting. Military hat: The salute is always performed from the position of attention. It is the responsibility of the leader to face the group towards the flag and order present arms. All hats: Saluting is a sign of respect to the flag that represents our nation; thus extending that respect to the people of this nation and those who came before us, and to the sacrifices that were made. Scouts do not need military style drill, but a simple moment of respect. Twisting and turning looks awkward. Whenever the leader asks everyone to rise for the Pledge of Allegiance, everyone should rise and face the flag. If they are formed into patrols, then they should simply turn towards the flag. Keep it simple and respectful. If someone is having trouble with saluting, one of the leaders (a youth leader for Boy Scouts) should take them aside and give them a short lesson. Ditto if the leader is having trouble. Ed Palmer

ScoutStuff.org now shows the pants as originally $66.55-$74.75, now at $36.49. It also shows sizes 32-40 as out of stock, with availability of May 1 or May 31. Ed

Father and sons camping together is OK, so perhaps there is something else going on? Generally, we discourage this after the first campout or so and try to draw parents in with the other adults. I find that parents tend to do things for their son instead of letting him work with the patrol. There is an issue in that patrol method is broken. Patrols camp as patrols; adults should act as a patrol and tent away from the others. To encourage this, our adults are in the Old Vikings patrol; the emblem is a horned helmet with crossed crutches. Ed

Cycling is hard, especially since it is entirely oriented towards road bikes. One of our committee members has been pushing National to add a mountain bike section. You just don't do a 50 mile mountain bike trip in one day. We have a bike trip every year, and we are doing much more off-road than we were 10 years ago. Ed

Why not? We had a group of young Revolutionary War re-enactors who were persuaded to register as a crew. It sure helped them with insurance and it gives them more opportunities to show. I think several of them are working towards Ranger. This is how Venturing is supposed to work. We give you some lumber and tools and you build your own house just the way you like it. Ed