Engineer61

Red flags everywhere. Private home overnight, co-ed, only one adult, redirected communication, single, no kids.

"...might die of malnutrition, lack of resources, or disease brought on by overcrowding" This is a popular rationalization. I totally agree...just look at the Bison...million of them roamed North America ... seemed to be just fine. The Native American survived on them just fine ... everything was great till 'ole pale face arrived. If you need to hunt/trap/fish to survive ... that's one thing ... if you want to teach what the OP wanted...you can use a bullseye. (This message has been edited by Engineer61)

"I want the truth!" "You can handle the truth!" Pretty much sums up the human condition to me.

Peri... I'm not a Vegan, and I know far more about food production than most people... I simply choose to differentiate killing for food than killing for sport/adventure. Supposedly, that is what differentiates humans from the rest of the species. My original statement still holds true...if you want to teach those "skills" you can do it with a bullseye. If you gents want to train boys to kill ... have at it. Mine will not be out there.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

With all due respect Gunny. I call horse-hockey. As a comment to your rant ... what does *any* of your rant have to do with the topic of destroying a living entity for fun? If you want to teach "stalking", hand them all a camera and have at it. My wife was a competitive shooter when she was young...had to learn everything you mentioned and never killed a living thing doing it ... to teach what you supposedly want to teach...use a bullseye on a range. Otherwise you just want to teach the adrenaline rush of destroying something that God, not you, put on the Earth.

It's just me ... but marksmanship is not a necessary skill for most kids these days. I was taught to handle firearms when I was 10 or so. I didn't need the knowledge then...I wasn't putting food on the table. My father and brothers hunted small game for fun...I didn't see the point of taking life for fun. I shot clays for fun. Haven't fired a weapon in 25 years probably. Not sure if kids will discern the difference between hunting game for fun and adventure vs. hunting humans or non-game animals. You might recruit a ton of NRA members from it though.

Sounds like standard parental amazement.

Yes. I am tougher than a Boy Scout? My skin is much older and leathery, so it is tougher to cut. This falls under another "Who cares?" reality TV idea.

Yes. I firmly believe that children, teenagers and young adults do not fully comprehend the long term effects or consequences of their decisions. I also believe that effective (or ineffective) nurturing can alter this capability. Why do we see more obvious examples of this now than 40 years ago? Duh. Larger sample size to draw from and better communication.

Fact is racism is alive a well in the USA. It's not going to go away ... ever. While most of us want it to end, there are still too many people with racial hatred in their minds. In 1985, I worked in Raleigh, NC. Most of us became layoff victims...so to keep our sanity, a group of us would go to golfing once a week while we were looking for work. Four of us went to a course just south of Raleigh...can't remember the place. I went in, said we needed fees for four, the reply was, "Three green fees would be X." When I repeated that we need fees for four, the man behind the counter said one of our party could not play...he was Japanese-American. We left.

"So the flow on the Verde is reasonably stable even with some rain. They'd need a lot more than 1 inch of rain to need to release enough water from. " Not sure how long you've been here 5year, but the gates on Horseshoe are open... almost always are this time of year to cut evap from the lakes, so the Bartlett watershed is > 100 sq miles, instead of 50 or 60. With so little actual soil in that watershed, there's a big percentage of straight runoff.

Hey Beav, Thanks for the apology Beav, but it's unnecessary... I really have nothing to contribute to the effort anyway, except maybe logistical support. All my outdoor skills are self-taught and I haven't used them in 35 years anyway.

1) Were you a scout as a youth? 2) Did you earn Eagle? LOL! I never made it to the second question! At my first meeting, one old guy (in full Scout garb) actually turned and walked away from me when I answered "No" to #1!!! Hasn't spoken a word to me since.

I am glad they vacated the area before the real weather hit. The weather is not all that unusual for winter in Arizona...a bit odd that it is this late in the winter ... Global Warming I guess. "Hope that helps allay your fears for the future." Not really. The trip doesn't change the fact that Scout is a non-swimmer and should not be on the open water. In spite of our suggestion/request, Scout was placed in a canoe with another Scout, not an adult.

Ah the internet.... the geographic center of the mainland of the US is someplace near Lebanon, KS.

"By any chance did your son have any incidents when he was younger?" Nope. ==== Trip was cut short due to the cold front that moved in. 50 MPH winds, snow in deserts.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

I agree with you Skeptic....the size of that storm looks messy...even here in AZ. Most in the East have no concept of the flash flooding. Growing up in Central Ohio, I've seen flash flooding, but the stuff we get out west is 10 times worse. Another factor with the rain is the last wildfire season and if there is enough vegetation to hold the dirt on the hillsides...

"That's the stuff that the SPL or the lads who planned the trip should be making." So, if the 14 or 16 yo SPL says, "Yep" you go? That is completely outrageous! Thanks for helping tonight's sleep.

Yeah, Beav....heard before "Just trust us." === Oh well...I hope there's lot's of good movies on this weekend. === (This message has been edited by Engineer61)

"An inch of rain isn't goin' to change it much, eh?" Uhhhh... I'd say wrong on that ... an inch of rain will flash flood all the tributaries out there. That area is all mountainous with little to no soil to hold the water...historical flows are meaningless in Arizona, since we've been in Drought to Extreme Drought conditions for almost 25 years. Like I say, it's my sleep that gets lost. I don't correlate the airline pilot with experience, testing and training vs. with 14 year old ... sorry.

Thanks for clearing that up OGE....need to forward it to National though! LOL

Oh...some layman thoughts: OA? "What...still MORE service? Pass." (Scout's response) Philmont/Northern Tier/Sea Base? COST! NYLT? Never heard of it....so I guess that's an issue right there! Jamboree? COST!

Well here's an update that will prevent any sleep for me for the next 48 hours. I watch the Lifeguard a the YMCA totally pass off his swim test. I would have failed him on at least 1/2 the criteria. 1) Did not swim 75 yards continuously, stopped at most every 1/2 lap (25 yards) 2) Stopped and bounced off the bottom several several times. 3) Only swam one stroke "in a strong manner" the rest was just floundering. 4) Did not successfully float. I told Mom what I saw and what I thought ... she sent him anyway. In short ... my Scout in or on the water is a danger to others who will have to risk themselves to save him. That section of the Verde River is due to get 1" of rain over the next 24-36 hours.

Since I'm on the outside of the Adult equation, I'll offer this. Some of us parents (especially those who were never Scouts) have no idea *what* you want, *when* you want it or *why* this time and not the others. We're not supposed to be a the Troop meetings...remember? We hear "this is boy led", "boys only", "let the boys figure it out"... etc. So we parents get a big fat "Stop...Stay Away" sign. The next thing we know, you need parents for committees, functions, transportation ... etc. We go "Huh? .. But you said..." It beats us as to what you're doing at any given moment...hence the participation issues. Oh, and by the way...your average Scout doesn't communicate diddly to his parents about anything Scout related. Half the time, I can ask my Scout what he did at the meeting 30 minutes ago, and I'll get "stuff".... or "I dunno".

Hey...thanks for all the responses. See if I can answer some stuff... As far as I know, he has never "passed" the swim test, he refused to use the pool at Summer Camp the one year he went. And he doesn't want to go to Summer Camp this year. He went on a near-shore lake canoe trip last year I think ... the got dumped and they didn't dry bag their clothes... not sure what they did about that. My pool is about 30' long, I've never seen him do more than one-half lap without having to stop and clear his eyes, nose, ears or mouth. The river is a section of the Verde River in Central Arizona, flow is controlled by a dam....last I checked it was releasing 200 cfs. But it is a narrow river for the most part ... I have no idea on the water speed. Google Earth does show white water in parts. "A PFD is a supplemental safety device in my opinion." I completely agree. I consider a PFD as something that has a good chance of keeping you alive if you are unconscious or directionally disoriented...it won't get you to shore. If you panic, your body will just be easier to find. I'm in a "wait and see" on his ability tonight. But regardless...his participation on the next trip isn't my decision....it's Mom's.