Engineer61

Unfortunately, and as a part of the growth of BSA, it is obvious that BSA *is* a discriminatory organization. You long time Scouters can rant and rave that BSA isn't, but the reality is that it is. Examine the demographics, race, creed, sexual orientation of BSA. It's what BSA chooses to do...so be it. But don't expect the public-at-large and therefore the government to support or even condone it. Personally, I don't agree with it...but I am willing to put up with it to the point where my Scout begins to take a discriminatory tone towards those that are not permitted to be Scouts....then he is done.

IMO, I think there are plenty of inappropriate names for Patrols....some of them have already been stated...Green Berets and several other military references would be borderline. Scout is supposedly NOT paramilitary in nature, so military references should be avoided. Further, organizations that promote the overthrow of government(s), violent civil unrest or represent hate organizations should not be permitted. Here are some examples.... Black Panthers Klan (or Clan) Crusaders SS Wehrmacht Skin Heads Al Qaeda To name a few....

Overall, the GS Council is probably correct in their decision. I would not have permitted my Scout (boy or girl) to continue in the scenario that was described. The issue is not what the Church controls/tests/maintains within the walls, but what the environment outside the walls degrades to.

Ok....I agree with the whole responsibility thing...that works well with Tylenol/Advil/Zyrtec and other OTC medications. I have a significant problem with carrying that through in the camp environment with the ADD/ADHD medications (Methamphetamine and Dexedrine derivatives). First, the kids taking these as a treatment for ADD/ADHD can inadvertently take multiple doses in a short time frame. "Did I take my medication....I don't remember...." so a second dose goes on board. Second, these medications have powerful impacts on those that do not take them regularly...and regardless of what we may WANT our Scouts to achieve, there are those that do dabble in the drug environment, from RX drugs to OTC cough suppressants, there are possible abusive behaviors with nearly every medication. So, IMO, all medications should be monitored and administered by an adult. It's the safe thing to do.

Hmmm...no real hobbies...no real time to devote to that kind of stuff. I bowl every once in a while. I coach youth baseball in the spring. I swim some in the summer.

Wow! I loved this one! "No GPS? Gore Tex? Kevlar? Nylon? . . . " But you didn't go far enough!!!! IMO. Propane, electricity... Let's get back to the elements...(the original 5!) * Wood * Fire * Earth * Metal * Water What a hoot!

Funny....JUST as I hit SUBMIT, I remembered a BIG issue with medicated ADD/ADHD kids. FOOD! Virtually all of the ADD/ADHD medications are a form of methamphetamine (beware the parent or leader that refers to it as SPEED or METH, that person should have NOTHING to do with the ADD/ADHD Scout!) As such, the medication is a very effective appetite suppressant while the medication is in effect. So, on campouts, the Scout will not be hungry at lunchtime (possibly even dinner), but will be very hungry after the medication wears off. This fact must be accommodated for! If the Scout is engaged in high energy activities, it is paramount that he eat *something* at lunch, no matter how small...and when the medication wears off, it is critical that the Scout have access to the additional calories needed to make up what was missed during the day. Also the medication can assist in dehydration, so additional fluids are warranted.

I just went through the Powerpoint that Info posted. It's a good start but it I think it missed a couple of key points of ADD/ADHD. ADD/ADHD kids, in addition to impulsiveness also frequently display quite rigid forms of Obsessive Compulsive behavior, so much so that any *new* task can become so daunting that the kid cannot begin to fathom a solution to a new problem and instead will want to revert to something else they are comfortable with. I could easily see where Scouting with it's inherent and constant flow of new activities could easily become problematic for an ADD/ADHD Scout. The biggest key to remember is that even medicated ADD/ADHD kids have to come off the medication everyday. It is that transition that is probably the most difficult for the leaders to adjust to.

To be completely honest, I have major apprehension about my Scout going on campouts and Scout summer camps. I usually sleep no more than 1-4 hours a night when he is out. Generally, I don't believe that most of the SM's and ASM's have any idea (or training) how to deal with these kinds of issues when they come up.

As a parent of two boys, one with ADD (Scout) and one with ADHD (Athlete), I worry most about safety issues. ADD/ADHD generally has a level of impulsiveness involved. The problem with impulsive behavior is that it is unpredictable to you and that the boy does not (cannot) envision the consequences of the behavior he is about to engage in. Both of my boys are medicated. When on Scout trips, his medication is given to him. This is problematic in that the medication is designed to only be effective for 6-10 hours. After that, the Troop has to deal with him without medication. For my athlete, I time his medication dosage (or augment it) to ensure that it is in effect during his events. It is not an easy line to walk. At some point, the safety of the Scout and the Troop must outweigh the desire of the Scout or the Parents (or you).

All of the conspirators should have been given the immediate and permanent boot from the Troop.

"I think that Baden would roll over in his grave if he found out that this is the basis for a camporee." "What do you think?" I think we shouldn't give a rats behind what Baden thought. He did after all, he died in the pre-nuclear age and liked to hang out with Mussolini.

I can think of one 21st Century skill for certain... Having the ability to safely shut down a runaway Toyota! {snicker}

So, it sounds like the difference is a matter of degree. Buying a dozen cases of bottled water at Costco because it came on sale might be called Thrifty or Preparedness. Buying a pallet of cases of bottled water at Costco because you just finished your bunker in your backyard is Survivalist. Ok...my examples might be a bit overstated. But I think that's the general idea. Just IMHO, the key to dealing with unknown situations cannot be taught. It more a matter of common sense and improvisation which are not even skills, they are mindsets. But hey what do I know?

I usually go with my first gut instinct with something like this.... That first instinct says to me there's a hidden agenda or bias against the Camp, that has nothing to do with the scope of the project or the Scout.

I guess I'll clarify what I said about our Troop meetings being total chaos.... They are total chaos. There is always someone different leading the meeting, never more than 14 years old (usually younger). The older boys are almost never there. The last time I saw them was at CoH. So the issue in this troop is that the older Scouts are not around to mentor the younger Scouts. That results in perpetual chaos. Since August, my Scout's Patrol has had 3 PL's and 2 APLs'. My son is now an ASPL.

What is the difference between Preparedness and Survivalist? Degree?

OCD...eh....maybe. ADD might be a closer hit. Some the progression you stated, it sounds like you may have pulled him from the Den Chief position when he was really content to stay there. There's nothing to say that advancement is on a timetable and that every boy hits Eagle. When he's ready to try the leadership shoes on again, I'd find out if he really *liked* being Den Chief, and if he did, put him back there. The adage goes, "If you love what you do, you will never work a day in your life."

It could be as simple as the Dad's feel intimidated by Scouting. How many were Scouts? If you know nothing about it, Scouting at any level has a lot more rules and regs than any other activity that you can get involved with. There are some religions that don't have as many rules! I'd suggest approaching specific Dad's with specific requests...preferably something that you know the Dad has a knowledge of. You might get better results that way, than by calling "All hands on deck!"

So, the popular thinking apparently, is that Troop B parent led and therefore bad. Well not necessarily. Depends on your Scout....and what you're both willing to tolerate. If your Scout (and you!) can handle a lot of chaos and constant rollover of youth leadership, then a Patrol Led troop is for you. If, on the other had, your Scout (and you) cannot handle disorganization and indecision and constant leadership rollover very well, the a Patrol Led troop is *not* for your Scout. Personally, my Scout's troop drives me bonkers. I have to just go wait outside most of the time. I've seen preschools more organized. It really boils down to what your Scout's (and your) goals are. Experiences...ok...Troop B works for that, the leadership is more organized. If you want some other result, then maybe Troop B isn't it for you.

Wow...what a stupid idea. It really does sound like a bunch of thrill junkies. How is BSA going to handle all the injury lawsuits...because waivers or not, they will be flying in by the truckloads.

The BSA has a specific "reverence" that it refers to...that being God.

I always liked my brother's answer on his favorite pie... He likes two, in no particular order.... 1) Hot 2) Cold In the absence of one the other will do!

An interesting post...quite hijack-able by the Survivalist Contingent (SC's). IMO practical knowledge to function in a normal environment is a very good goal. I would even add a few like... Know what natural gas leaks smell like, and what to do. Know which side of the road to walk on vs. bike on and why. That includes sidewalks. Know what to do when people around are you are doing something unsafe. As for the 2012 crowd, well, when the Big One comes and we no longer have energy, water and food; those that are left should know how to dig a lot of graves. Without the technological advances of the past 300 years, there is not enough food production capability on the planet to sustain more that a fraction of the world's population. With a couple of billion dead bodies around, it won't take long for the Typhoid, Diphtheria and other classical diseases to contaminate the planet and get the rest of the population. I'm not certain which side of that line I want my family to be on. The Jeremiah Johnson types will live a bit longer. But no amount of the "Three B's" will really make a difference. (This message has been edited by Engineer61)

Regular sporting goods stores will have them. Sports Authority, Dick's, Big5. Some may have protective cup pouches.