Engineer61

Almost all troops in my area are 9 month troops. Two reasons... 1) Average temps here are 110 degrees in the summer. 90+ in the mountains. 2) A significant percentage of the troop travels away for the summer to visit other parent. (this is probably a constant across more troops now.

I don't qualify as a "camping person". The family and I last went camping last summer. We used a 31' RV. We had a good time and for the majority of us...it was a close to nature as we cared to get. I always disliked camping as a kid....guess it carried over to adulthood. Nothing enjoyable about packing a bunch of stuff in, sweating like a dog setting up camp, getting camp wiped out by rain in the afternoon, fighting off the asthma from the fire smoke and fighting the bugs at night. Yep...31' was just fine with me.

Disinfecting wipes for the latrine. Helps keep the creeping crud to a minimum.

Well, I pretty much disagree with your line of thought Beavah. Not unusual... Is it "growing up" if you end in the bottom of the pond? When I was growing up, you didn't get in ANY boat until you could swim jacket. Seems like a pretty reasonable rule to me.

"If you and your wife are so concerned about this, why did you let your boy participate? Just because everyone else was doing it is not a good reason. If you have a problem with part of the program being offered by your son's troop, council, or even the BSA, explain your concerns and hold him out. Don't wait for the "Big Man" to do it for you. " I totally agree... 1) I personally was unaware that the canoeing was taking place, or I would have tried to kill it on the spot. (However my Scout is my step-son, so my input is limited.) 2) My wife tends to be a little too "pro-Scouting" and believes that everything there is perfect with nothing to worry about...ever. The function in question was a troop function at a site that is frequently used by the local troops (working ranch).

After what I learned tonight, I am amazed that BSA does not take water safety more seriously. One would think that the prerequisite for Canoeing, Rafting, or any open water swimming (lake, ocean, stream) would be the completion of the Swimming Merit Badge. Not so....my Scout was permitted to work on his Canoeing MB without regard to the fact of the Scout's swimming ability. "They were wearing life jackets" was the excuse. Sorry, folks, life jackets fail all the time. Furious argument to ensue with my wife, no doubt.

I find this flow of control and responsibilities in BSA a little odd. The Troop's complain about the changes and controls being put in by National, when it is the actions/inactions of the Troop's that push National in to the corner to begin with. The Utah fire wasn't set by anyone at National, but National had to pay for the damages that resulted from the irresponsible actions of the *adults* that failed to provide sufficient oversight of the Scouts. The Oregon case wasn't perpetrated by someone from National, but National had to pay the damages that resulted from the inaction to monitor and act when the child molester was uncovered. National and the so called "Secret Files" was a tremendous blunder with probably has 1000's of Cub Scout parents already deciding to not even consider BSA as an option. You cannot have it both ways...you could not in 1910 and you cannot in 2010. IMO, Scouting is desperate need of serious overhaul to bring the program from 1910 to 2010.

Under no circumstances can hazing of any kind be tolerated. If I were the parents of the victim, I would ... ...immediately file a criminal assault complaint against the attacker. ...demand the immediate lifetime expulsion of the attack from BSA (not just this troop). ...demand the SM (not a child) hold an attendance-required seminar for all Scouts and Parents on the topic of hazing...any scout who did not attend would not be permitted any further advancement.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

"Anyway I have to ask, based on the conversation several weeks ago where you asked how many Scoutmasters have talked to the parents about pushing their son to Eagle? Where do you sit with that now? Would you like you sons scoutmaster to talk to your wife? Would you like to be that scoutmaster? " Yeah, I could be that Scoutmaster....because in my case I have been "that" baseball coach. That is the coach where you have the 10 year old kid who's older brother was the high school or college baseball star...who's parent have "great things planned" for the younger son. While unpleasant, it was a necessary conversation. The health of the boy's arm was at stake. They did not like me for it....but I really didn't care, because I could look at myself in the mirror and know that I did the right thing. Personally, I don't see any SM or ASM in my troop with the stones to intervene over the best interest of the boy. I envision that at some point, I'm going to have to have a one-on-one with my Scout and then go to bat for him.

So, at the risk of extreme personal harm...I brought up the subject of Scout over lunch with wifey today. (Yes, I removed all sharp utensils prior and scouted best exit and had phone pre-dialed to 911.) It was an easy transition to the conversation, since she was on the phone about some scouting stuff when I got there. I feinted stupid, asking what MB's Scout had signed up for... told me what I already knew.... Auto Mechanics and an ER badge, explained she'd made a deal for the ER.... So I pushed back a bit, asking why push the Eagle stuff right now...plenty of time...heard that most kids don't even make a push for it till 15 or 16... She stuck to her guns though..."so and so in troop Eagled at 16" ... "he has to advance a rank every year" ... So, my response was, "look, if you want him in this, then you need to let him do it at his pace ... or he's gonna drop it completely." She thought a second ... but I don't think she buys it ... didn't expect her to. Ok... I tried ...

"Maybe having one of the relatives who made Eagle talk to your good Lady and explain that Eagle isn't all that there is to Scouting might be a good idea." An interesting idea, except they are even more pushy than Mom is ... Funny, my sister-in-law just had a baby boy...when my wife said something to her about being in Scouts in a few years, she replied, "Heck no! I'm gonna make sure he's gay!" Probably speaks volumes. As for the peer pressure issue with Scouts...it really isn't a factor in our school system here....since Scouts are prohibited from using school facilities or participating in school functions since it is considered to be a religious club or organization.

He's 12...

Sorry...I didn't think I needed specifics for hate organizations... But here goes...how about... Ku Klux Klan White Aryan Resistance Nation of Islam These three are classified by the FBI as hate organizations

How about this.... The fleur-de-lis is the main element in the logo of most Scouting organizations, representing a major theme in Scouting: the outdoors and wilderness.[1] The three petals or leaves represent the threefold Scout Promise (Duty to God and Country, Duty to Self, Duty to Others) in much the same way as the three leaves of the trefoil represent the threefold promise for the Guides. Robert Baden-Powell, the founder of the Scouting movement, explained that the Scouts adopted the fleur-de-lis symbol from its use in the compass rose because it "points in the right direction (and upwards) turning neither to the right nor left, since these lead backward again." The two small five-point stars stand for truth and knowledge. Together their ten points represent the ten original Scout laws. The reef knot or square knot represents the strength of World Scouting. The rope is for the unity of Scouts throughout the world. The ring holding the petals together represents the bond of brotherhood.

So, my Scout's interest in Scouting is pretty simple. He want's to do the "fun badges", go camping, help on other's Eagle projects (to some extent) and let the whole Eagle thing go by. Ok...my thought is...well, it's your activity...you decide what you want from it. It's like pushing a kid to play a position in baseball when that's not what he wants to play....it's not good. Mom, on the other hand doesn't see it that way. Clearly, she wants Scout to Eagle....like G-pa, Uncle and Bio-dad. It's getting a little messy...pushing advancement issues because Friend-X has made Y. Pushing badges that are Eagle requirements rather than letting Scout pick what he wants to do at Advancement Day and being happy that he's going. Scouting is becoming that elephant in the corner. Thoughts?

What about other offensive/illegal/questionable choices.. What if a Scout states publicly that... He is an Atheist. He is a member of a hate organization. He is a gang member.

There is that big lawsuit to pay for...

Good job by that boy. My son as turned in a wallet at school this year...the Asst. Principal called to thank me for raising a good kid. He's not even a Scout. I wonder if this story would have made it to the air if the boy had not been a Scout.

Find another troop....I suspect your problems are only beginning.

To be honest, when I do get to go to meetings I don't bother to look at the doo-dads on the boys, let alone the adults....they are all too small and my eyesight is too bad. From my view, if you want to look like George C. Scott at the beginning of "Patton" ... go ahead. I'm more impressed by the respect you show us non-Scout parents then how much your uniform weighs. So far, in my troop...I haven't been impressed.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

BadenP wrote... "That was a real eye opener for me and I have heard many other corporate executives say something similar about scouting and the Eagle, so my question is what has changed, where did the BSA go wrong?" Fundamentally, I don't think it is so much what BSA did wrong or right, but what they did not do. BSA, for all intents and purposes is largely unchanged from the organization that was started in 1910. As a result, by today's societal standards, BSA is a openly discriminatory organization based upon creed and sexual orientation, and some would say race due to the affiliation that BSA has. Consider for a moment what would be the difference in the United State, had no changes to Constitution been made since 1910. There would be no Federal Income Tax (ok perhaps NOT a good example!) We would not directly elect U.S. Senators Women would not have the right to vote. Presidents could sit for unlimited terms. Washington DC would have no votes in the Electoral College We would have poll taxes. 18 year old's could still fight for our country but not vote. I omitted a few, but you get the idea.

Without Eagle? Would the program be better or worse? Beats me. You would lose those Scouts who are there only because their parents are pushing the Eagle because they view it as a "must have" for their boy to succeed in life. I don't know that would be bad for the boys...maybe for the parents and BSA, but not the boys. You might end up with boys in the program who want to be in because of what they are doing, rather than what the trophy is at the end. Why does there have to be a trophy at the end? Because some guy 100 years ago wanted one? My son plays a variety of sports and is an excellent trombone player for his age. He does each of them for the fun of doing it. Baseball, basketball, bowling, tennis and soccer. He doesn't win awards because he does not play on competitive teams...he doesn't want to play baseball 300 days in order to be on a competitive team. He wants to be a Dentist ... baseball, basketball, trombone or Eagle won't make a difference. Your memories are your trophies by friends...not your badges, buttons, bobbles and trinkets. My trophies are photos of my kids doing what they like to do.

"It seems that scouts need to find their own reason for wanting to get Eagle..." Precisely! And to expand, if a Scout does NOT want to make Eagle, but wants to get what HE wants out of Scouting, then I feel it is the SM's responsibility to help said Scout convey that fact to the parents who are pushing it.

Yeah, I've seen it. My guess it that uniform is left purposefully unspecific so that they car manufacturer doesn't get sued by BSA or GSA.

Basement... ....you made my point.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)