Engineer61

One observation that seems to be common is that the adult-led troops are being chosen over the boy-led troops. From the tone of the posts, is sounds to me like the belief is that the boys are making this decision. Of course, this is not the case....the parents are making the decision. Ask yourself when your prospective Scouts (and parents) come and visit...what do they see? Do they (not you) see: 1) a group of boys, well organized, where the there is a leader leading and followers following? 2) an uncontrolled group of hyperactive boys, with no leadership, discipline or direction? 3) Eagle Mill...where the boy's (and parents) that want to Eagle by age 14 leave the others to fend for themselves. Most parents will believe (like it or not) that you cannot advance in an environment that is #2 or #3, in spite of what B-P might have conjured up 100 years ago. Certainly, you've realized that you have to convince the parent to get the boy.

Ok. So I the joke was funny...however... ...having been personally in the malestrom that surrounds false allegations of child abuse, I can tell you that there is nothing ever humorous about any aspect of it. Those of you that thought some were too serious about the negative position they took have no idea what all the allegation of child abuse entails. I submit that it is that very attitude that resulted in "Oregon" and YPT. Those two messages may not have been enough for some of you. Finally, my preferred Dallas Cowboy joke... Q: Do you know by Barry Switzer had such a had time winning as the Dallas Cowboys coach? A: He wasn't used to having a Salary Cap. Q: What do you call a drug ring in Dallas? A: The huddle.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

Confusual ... confusion as usual. Dad ... it's a verb. Kwitcherbellyackin ... you figure it out.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

Several possibilities come to mind as age increases: 1) Change in time commitment needed for Scouting... camping, MB's, service projects. 2) Change in interests of boy....music, sports, other school organizations. 3) Parents idealogical conflict with Boy Scouts vs. Cub Scouts...i.e. faith-based vs. agnostic. 4) Cost.. uniforms, fees, equipment.

This staff....that staff...the way average parent looks at it is that it's the SM's. Only the insiders have any knowledge of who reports to who. As far at the boy's doing the bookkeeping...I'd doubt it...it would be a help if they wrote neatly.

"You can remain in scouting in some capacity for the rest of your life." The same is true for sports...we're called Coaches, Referees, Umpires, League Board Members.... My biggest challenge? Baseball practice ... I hit 100 baseballs and throw 15-20 pitches to each of my 15 players at each practice. Nobody in the big's throws 225-300 pitches in a 2 hour practice. Where's the Motrin!!!!

Even with Troopmaster, the advancement process is paper intensive....all that paper has to be generated, verified and then entered into Troopmaster. And then you have the issues of missing paperwork, so it doesn't get entered at all...that's the worst part...ASM's and PL's not tracking who did what when amd where then bashing the ACC because something is missing. Our troop is about 100 active Scouts. Far worse than that is that the ACC in our troop also does all the MB scheduling for summer camp...

"Our entire economy is transitioning to service and technical. We've outsourced all our manufacturing and destroyed our labor unions." Hate to burst your bubble, but engineering, especially design engineering, has been outsourcing for years as well. India, China, Russia, turkey, Israel, Singapore have all been the destination. I live is what use to be called the "Silicon Desert"...hundreds of semiconductor, telecommunication, mil-aero electronics companies...there might be 30-40 companies now.

"This is an easy one... Scouts are always taken at their WORD." I take everyone at their word...until they prove themselves to be untrustworthy... ...then I never take them at their word again.

Yes, SS and every other corporate pension account is a Ponzi scheme. Unfortunately, I believe that there is just as much risk to private retirement funds due to the corruption of Wall Street and the Bankers, that retirement for any of us is at best a 50/50 possibility. My wife will be able to retire...I'll kick the bucket, and she'll get the life insurance!

I too agree that a long blown out ceremony for the adults would excessive. At the CoH in question, it took less than 3 minutes for the SM to call up in mass all the ASM's, thank the ASM's, and down. Thank all or thank none.

I don't agree with you at all Bev... I think CoH is the perfect time for the Scouts to recognize and show appreciation for the adults that make Scouting possible. No adults...no scouting. I'm there is some Scouting edict somewhere about Scouts showing appreciation for efforts taken on their behalf. CoH is the only time where ALL of the Scouts and ALL of the parents are present. If you don't want that at all...then fine. Don't thank any of the adults for anything....but don't exclude anyone if you do... ...that's just rude. What a ...

The baseball league that I coach in (Pony League organization) has multiple age brackets and divisions...it's common with most of the other leagues here. At the 9-10,11-12,13-14 brackets, there are rec and competitive divisions, but both have mandatory play time. The rule is "everyone sits once, before anyone sits twice"...fun for the coaches to figure out...but we do it. At 15-18 there is only one division, but the playing time rule is the same. The school teams operate differently, since 50 kids will try out for 12 spots on the basketball team, you have to cut.

Eagle - Well said... "Marching band meets more often during the week (when in season) than Scouts. The same friends they see daily in school are there, then afterward they walk home together. These same people are at every event, not just a few campouts. This close camaraderie may lead to a Scout preferring marching band over Scouts." ABSOLUTELY! On a daily basis, my son sees 1 or 2 fellow Scouts. My other son sees most of his band on a daily basis the whole school year. I don't fear the attendance officer. Of course, most states to have minimum attendance requirements for class credits. Here, if you miss 12 class periods in a semester, the school can refuse to give you course credit for that semester. So if you blow off 1/2 dozen Friday's to go camping in a semester, you're probably on the radar. Blow off Friday and Monday and you're definitely talking to the Principal.

Hey SM's!!! When you hold those CoH's and your off thanking all the ASM's, giving out mugs, etc....you be wise to do the same for the Advancement Committee Chair. Our's didn't! Our Advancement Chair puts in 10-15 hours a week...every week, year round...sometimes 30-40 hours in the busy weeks leading up to CoH and Summer Camp...paperwork everywhere, making up for the ASM's that don't turn in paperwork...coordinating with District Council, trips to the Scoutshop. She easily puts in more time than the ASM's combined. Man is she ticked.

My own observations is that it there is not a defined location... ...it is far more important the he "bark" out commands....can't tell you how many times I've witnessed the commands being whispered.

That not a result that is unique to Scouting. I have the same "affliction" with Marching Band and Baseball. It's called parenting.

Oh...a few more comments... dS15 remarked: "Assistance might be as simple as saying 'Where's your EpiPen? Can you reach it?'" First off, your first indication of a severe allergic reaction may be the victim passing out. You won't be able ask the victim anything. I'd even venture to say that in a majority of the time, the victim going to the ground as the first indicator is more the norm, not less. "There are absolutely situations where a Scout may need to assist another Scout, most of them not involving dead or incapacitated adults. Unsupervised patrol hikes and camp outs, for instance, which are approved activities in the Boy Scout program." Then as his parent I would have to insist that my Scout not participate in activites were adults are not present. It would be irresponsible as a parent to allow otherwise. I cannot honestly rely on a 12-18 year old to make an accurate assessment an apply the proper treatment in the proper way. "In some people, an anaphylactic reaction can come on within minutes." Minutes? Try seconds. =============================== As for the increase in peanut allergy over the years...there's a bunch of theories, these two were the highest on my allergist's list. 1) Increased usage of peanut products in the food supply. Even in non-food products. This is increasing the exposure level causing a wider pool of sensitive individuals. 2) Population pool of those with the allergy is increasing, as those with the allergy have not died off at an early age. Thanks to the Epipen. They then propagate the allergy to their offspring.

Oddly, and maybe this should be another thread... why is homosexuality an issue in BSA anymore anyway? 1) We know from the Oregon case that BSA has pedophiles in the adult ranks. As far as I know, none of the perps were homosexual, making them bisexual. 2) BSA has instituted YPT to circumvent the issues 1. 3) Therefore a homosexual participant should not be an issue. Is there an assumption that all homosexuals are pedophiles? (I guess that's part of the homophobia...) I doubt there is a significantly higher percentage of homosexual pedophiles that non-homosexual ones. Now, perhaps if the issue is a homosexual Scout is the underlying fear, perhaps there is a different set of things to consider. How does BSA deal with bisexual Scouts?

I think it depends a great deal on "how" Dale is reversed. I think if BSA decided to drop the restriction voluntarily without impetous by a Court, or threat of legal action, that any membership immediately lost would be made up and surpassed within a year or two at best. Why? Because if BSA changed on their own, and it were announced as such, the public at large would take a new view of BSA that it is not (or at least less) narrow minded than they perceived. If, on the other if BSA only changed the policy as a result of a legal battle, then the public would still (correctly) believe that there is no difference in BSA policy from the "experience" than the boys would receive. The "local option" really isn't an option, because from a legal standpoint, it would seem to me to place everyone as risk from the local Troop, the District, the CO and to the top of BSA. Unfortunately, I don't believe a voluntary change will happen, the ultra-conservative CO's would be furious. I think there would be far more flak from the CO's than from the Scout parent's themselves.

Personally, I'd take the 17 1/2 year old Eagle over the 14...clearly the 14's parents earned the Eagle.

"Do not degrade this scouts Eagle simply because of one presentation." Uhhhh...why not? The public at-large has been led to believe that Eagle Scouts are some kind of great equalizer for the ails of our society's youth. The public is even "expected" to give preferential treatment to those who have earned Eagle. (Statements by politicians, check boxes on applications, etc.) So, if a Eagle is not up to this perceived standard, we should let him have a pass? Odd...

"So what makes Scouting a lousy high school program - or not?" I don't know that I'd use the word "lousy"...I might choose "disjoint", "unappealing" or "lack-luster". As children get older, the size of their connected group gets larger and the available activities expand. In elementary school, the group is the size of the class or at most grade. In middle school, the group expands two-dimensionally, more kids per grade and the grades themselves combine more to some extent. Dances, plays, bands, sports... In high school, the group really expands. Again in more students within the grade and more grades that are integrally involved with each other. Making friends across grade levels is far easier. And the opportunities for activities really expands...music, sports, clubs, student government, volunteering, committees... On the other hand, Scouting, from Cub all the way through...remains largely static...and small in size. By and large, new scouts come in the bottom and old scouts go out the top....there are some transfers in and out, but that is a very small percentage. The only significant change in the group occurs at crossover where 1/2 the boys don't move on...so it's always downward. There also appears to be classes within Scouts that really don't exist in the same way within schools. You have those Scouts that are driven (by whatever source) to Eagle as quickly as possible; a middle class that is interested in Eagle, but in due time; and a third class that are there to have fun, do some camping and get some fun badges. Within such a small group, my thought is that it tends to make for some interesting relationship dynamics. I really don't think there is anything that Scouting would (or could or should) do about this...Scouting is what it is...and the leadership hierarchy seems to be happy with that.

Another issue came to mind.... Epipens are fairly fragile devices, I have had cases where they have fired in their storage tube, presumably because they were bashed around a bit. A dropped back pack, shock from a trip/fall on the trail could cause them to fire. The medication itself it a little more heat and light sensitive than other injectables as well. My thoughts on dScouter (and my extension Beavah's) comments... While I'm sure that pure-Scouters believe that it is perfectly acceptable and normal for every Scout in the Troop to learn how to identify when to use an Epipen and how to use it, I am equally sure that there is not a parent of one of these kids that would want a 12-18 year-old to be the person making the call and administering the device. And there's probably not a lot of kids that what 60-100 kids that they see once a week and a few weekends a year to know their medical details to that level. I worked with a gentleman for several years who had this allergy (but to fish) I and one other coworker in the area knew about it... it wasn't something he wanted publicized. Are there emergency situations where such an action by a Scout could be necessary? That is, the adults are dead or incapacitated, the boys are unsupervised, whatever? Ideally, the adults would not have allowed that situation to become reality to begin with.

An interesting topic...I like the "you know it when you see it" identifier....probably fits. The more I see of my Scout's troop, the more I suspect that it falls (at least slightly) into that category. If I understand my wife correctly, at least three boys will Eagle this year, one age 14 and two age 13. At the last CoH, the 14 year old was running the show, there were only 3 other Scouts older than him were present. I wasn't too impressed when he received his 11 merit badges either...the whole fist pump in the air kinda spoiled the moment. I sure this kid is a good kid overall, but I don't see where Scouting made him any better.