Engineer61

Well, since no one really got the opportunity to speak with them...there is no way of knowing for sure. My guess is that they were Buddhist. That has happened two or three times in this troop.

"Set a deadline and hold your ASM's and SM to it - period. We are all adults and have deadlines in every other aspect of life. If CoH is on the 15th, then ALL awards must be in to the AC NLT the 10th. You call on the 11th, then THAT ASM gets to explain to the scout in question WHY he will be waiting until next month to get his award." Actually, she did exactly that this last go 'round...and you should have seen all howling... And regardless of Troopmaster, it still takes quite a while to organize 450 MB's, patches, pins etc.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

This is the second time I've seen this in our troop. A new Scout show up...full uniform...nice looking and nice acting kid parents sitting next to me... Happens to be CoH night... Color guard, Pledge of Allegiance ... Prayer ... "Dear Lord...." they leave immediately after "Amen". Is there some communication missing here somewhere? Kind of an expensive way to find out your son cannot participate.

If the Leaders want to quit rather than to the job better, that's up to them. But as long a Leaders think that they have no issues, the program cannot improve. It's far easier and more beneficial to change the constant, rather than try to anticipate the variables. In a Troop, the constant is the Leaders (especially SM's it seems), not the Parents and not the Scouts. Here is a for instance... in our troop, roughly 1/2 the boys cannot attend Summer Camp with the troop because they must leave town to spend summers with the other parent. Of course, the SM's (and this board's) response to this is, "do a provisional camp or camp in the other location". Since the provisional camp is in the middle of the summer break, that doesn't work...and what is the chance that a 6th or 7th grader is going to really want to consider going away for a week with a group that they have never met ... not much. What are some alternatives? 1) Scout gets fed up that he doesn't get the opportunities that his friends do...and quits. 2) Scout stays in gets 4 or 5 MB's a year...maybe makes Life before he ages out. 3) Camp decides to put the provisional camp at the very start or very end of the summer season. 4) SM's in the area decide to get together and rotate weeks for summer camp. Which happens?

Another CoH and the same result... spent even more time thanking the previous person who hasn't done anything in over a year.... I'm gonna have a talk with my Scout...see what he thought.

If it were up to me...he would be out....but it's not... I just have to sit on the sideline and deal with consequences of an expensive hobby that as yet has not had a positive impact.... ...and causes me to lose sleep. Both my boys carry cell phones to school...for emergencies and to get ahold of us if they need to after school...there are no payphones and they are not allowed to use school phones. Phones are off during the class day.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

After some thought, while I would like to *believe* that Adult Led is a safer environment, it probably isn't. I suspect that the Adult Leaders are no more capable in making critical decisions than the boys themselves. That's probably explains why I don't sleep when my Scout is on a trip...

Our troop bans all electronics. After seeing the story on the Florida incident, I'm inclined to say SM-be-damned...my kid is taking his cell phone.

Leaders.

I just noticed this from one of the posts.... "This makes for a sensational story..." Really? You would describe real story the death of a boy as "sensational"? Wow.

No. He should not be an Eagle...nor would I support him for inclusion for National Honor Society, the National Merit Scholarship, nor any other award or organization that claims to require good personal character.

"And if you don't let the youth lead and make decisions....where and when do you expect them to suddenly know what to do when they become adults? " They learn it just like every non-Scout does....in real-time...where decisions are real and the stakes are sometimes high. I'm curious, is there a perception in the Scouting world that if you weren't a Scout you can't somehow lead and make decisions?

In response to "Horsehockey"... I should kindly remind the writer that for roughly the first 200 years of our country's existence you had to be 21 years old to vote...that changed in response to the Vietnam War. There is still a minimum age to be a Representative, Senator or President (I can't recall the Judicial Branch if it has an age minimum.) Maybe the Founders knew something...

Yes...there is something to be said of "Learning by Failure"...been there....done that. As long as the failures to not result in a life-altering event...I have no problem with that method. Failure a college Calculus course is not (generally speaking) a life-altering event. Dying while on a hike (to use a recent event) is a life-altering (albeit ending) event. I submit every course taken by every student in every classroom is a learn-by-doing experience...while the material is presented by an experienced instructor, each student must perform (do) and show proficiency in his/her knowledge of the material. Personally, the only difference I see between Patrol Led and Adult Led is safety.

OK...you asked for it... "Why does the Patrol Method work?" (or the Adult Led method) First, you have to answer the question... Does the Method work? To answer that question, you have to first answer. How do you measure the success of either Method (Patrol or Adult Led)? What is the metric you wish to choose? The answer that it's "been around for 100 years" is in an of itself NOT a measurement that is a duration of time and a definition of a tradition. So, how do we measure the success of either method? There are numerous possibilities... Number of Eagle Scouts vs. Total Number of Scouts ? Average Number of MB's / Scout (Normalized to the Total Number of MB's available since it varied over time)? Of course you would compare these between PM vs. AL troops... So...pick a metric and figure it out. Added: Then you can argue over at what level of the metric is "success" vs. "failure". In my current line of work, anything under ~98% is considered a failure. (This message has been edited by Engineer61)

"All the more reason for the adults to step back. If they fail, the will learn more from the failure than what the adults can teach them. " ...provided they survive the failure...right?

I'll echo that it is a collaborative effort by both the Adult Leaders and the Parents on when to go or not go on a specific activity. "I would also add that a scout needs to have input. part of growing up is knowing your own limitations. the scout needs to aheva role in this." No...they don't...remember the human mind does not properly calculate long-term consequences until about age 22-24. The boys can decide if the WANT to do something, not if it is REASONABLE for them to do it. The gray area is when the emotions/characteristics of the Leaders/Parents come into play. A Gung Ho ASM and a wishy-washy Parent is a recipe for disaster....and vice versa. Conditions have to be considered... ...taking a boy with asthma on a free-climb in the middle of hayfever season is probably not a good idea. ...taking a boy on a fast water or deep water canoe trip who is not a strong swimmer falls into this too. So both sides have to make realistic judgments and make decisions. Now...I'll be the first to say that a broken appendage bone is not the end of the world...been there...done that. However, death IS the end of the world...(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

"They don't seem to think we are capable of planning anything, or executing said plan." Did it ever occur to you that the Adult Leaders may be correct? That you really are not capable?

Gabby is not a centrist...but she is not a socialist either. I am not in here House district, but I would not have voted for her if I did. I am not a Republican.

"If yeh really think that your $15 recharter fee earns yeh the services of a hands-on professional outdoor educator for a full year then you're out of your mind." No...my $15 (if that is what it is...I'm certain it's more than than here) earns me professional training of the adult leaders. Not some book, or web video. And if that isn't enough... make it $150! A small price to pay for eliminating fatalities due to stupidity. And that is what this was... 10 levels of stupidity.

"Unless you have a huge troop..." I dunno, this is the only troop I've ever seen...is 60 "big"? "One thing not answered in the original post, WHO is doing the assigning? " Another I dunno...but if it was the boys, how would one boy get assigned to two positions at the same time? "It may be that the SM hasn't seen the issue arise..." I suspect that is certainly the case, since the SM is incredibly stand-offish from the actions of the troop. "Would it be bad for a Scout to discover that he needed to suck up to the Curly Haired Boss --- I mean the SPL in order to win his support for something he wants? " Yes...there is...if the "boss" has an agenda for his "golden child"....to extend the metaphor.

My spouse is the Advancement Chair for the Troop. One thing that she has noticed is a problem with favoritism with the assignment of Youth Leadership Positions. Certain Scouts, sons of the ASM's seem to roll from one leadership directly to others (sometimes while still active in the first position) while boys that need to get leadership time to get the next rank have to sit on the side. One case seems to speak to this loudly...ASM and Son are on a crusade to Eagle by age 14...13 if possible. He's been in 3 or 4 straight leadership positions with no breaks...while 4 or 5 other's cannot get positions. Suggestions?

"Besides, our values should come first, not our legal strategy. " That probably the single most brilliant thing I've ever heard on this site. but this one ... ...I don't think it's negligent to let volunteers lead hikes if the parents choose to do that rather than pay for professionals." Ah, but we parents *do* pay for professionals...we pay the professionals at BSA via our annual payments. And we parents expect that the adults *are* trained to the level that is necessary to handle *any* situation that arises. The symptoms, in the order in which they presented themselves were a direct pointer to heatstroke in that circumstance, if all the youths in the group failed to see it, then strip off the MB and make them take it again. However the adults are expected (by the parents) to be trained and correctly identify the problem. Further, if this boy is so tremendously out of shape, then the adult leaders should have refused to take him. The fact that will probably win this case for the parents is the failure to get assistance for over an hour. I am personally certain that this issue alone cost that boy his life, it almost defies rational thought to me. Does this directly impact Scouting? Of course it does...to some degree. Every case like this impacts the cost of the insurance by BSA, which effects the cost to the Scouts. It impacts BSA's to ability to get CO's since they have to consider the impact on their liabilities.

I've been thinking about that report ever since I watched it...I rarely watch Nightline, I just caught it while channel surfing. My wife and I both watched the report...in total silence...and we have talked about it since. IMO, there were many levels of failure ... from the parents through to the BSA. The parents put blind faith in the BSA and the adult leaders. That was their mistake. The adult leaders obviously did not recognize the fundamental symptoms of heatstroke, nor what to do about it. The also failed to immediately call for assistance. BSA obviously failed to adequately train these particular adult leaders on what do to in an emergency. I too thought the responses by the BSA representatives was atrocious at best.... "I wasn't on the job at that time..." bad answer. It's an interesting dilemma...as parents, we are supposed to be "hands off" Scouting unless we are adult leaders, but it's obvious that not all of the leaders are competent and cannot be trusted with the safety of our boys. ================ This event could not have come at a more opportune time for us. We've been contemplating whether or not to allow our scout to participate in a canoeing trip that involves deep-water activities. Given his physical capabilities and swimming skill level, I am now definitely pushing that he not be allowed to participate.

One question... How many CoH's do you have? We only have two in a year...one after summer and one before school is out. Why so many? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)