Engineer61

Risk Adverse? OK...I'll buy that 100%...maybe a little more. They're kids...not Marine recruits. I'm the one that gets to foot the bill in the ER and the Courtroom when the crap hits the fan and my Scout gets injures and bio-Dad goes on a legal rampage. Or my Ex uses such an event to come after me in the Courtroom to take my son away from me. BTDT. Where there is a need to take risks, I take them. I don't take them for the adrenaline rush or the wonder of being in the great outdoors. Having been caught in an Atlantic riptide as a young age I know what life-or-death is all about. I expect the SM's do to what they say they will and won't do.

Specifically, we were told that they would be canoeing along the perimeter of the lake. Instead, they made a crossing to get to an island in 15-20 mph winds. Waves 1-2 ft. Define prepared? Scout went in, remained in wet clothes until they returned to launch site. Fortunately he had was made to take dry clothes by Mom.

So, I'm feeling some of those Kudos that I laid on my SM getting retracted. Last weekend's Canoe trip resulted in at least one crew in 40 degree water. I don't like finding out that the group did something that we were specifically told they would not be doing. === Of course, I would have have allowed the trip anyway, since Scout's swimming skills are marginal at best. But that's not my call.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

I should try this with my Ex. My discussion with her usually end up with her saying either... "Period." or "So there." or "See you in Court."

Ah...there is also the possibility that the "Lazy Scout" actually doesn't want to be a Scout at all, but he's handcuffed to it by Dad or Mom. BTDT

Camping/hiking equipment is far and away been the largest cost. Even renting the equipment is expensive. Our troop really doesn't have any equipment of it's own....other than a trailer. Uniforms are the next most expensive item...depending on how fast they grow out of them. Our Scout no longer does summer camp...he's not hear during the troop camp dates, nor the provisional dates and does not wish to camp with those he does not know out of state.

I'd guess that your wife is holding up the yellow flag (or possibly red flag) that says "enough is enough, Scouting is our sons activity, not yours and not mine". I'd heed that flag... I kinds understand her drift...my wife is the "Scout Nut" in our house...10-20 hours (or more) a week, every week, year round. I have my activities, band parent in the fall for 15 weeks and baseball coach for 12 weeks in the spring....but I don't do anything year round.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

In my state, it is the "dirty little secret" that the teachers (who are paid on performance) teach to the state's standards test. Teaching to test is a reference to elementary and high school students not colleges and universities. What does it mean? I'll use Math as an example. Say that the standard for a specific grade is that the students should be able to pass multiplication to '9'... 1x1 to 9x9. The teachers will pound that range...and that range only...even if the class is capable of learning to '12x12'. Teaching to the test means that you don't push the students to what they can do, only to what the need to do. That is the failing of performance based merit pay for primary/secondary educators. But hey....what do I know...

So, the G2SS says: "The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities." But the Annual Charter Agreement (from my local Council) does not...it says only...(in bold print no less) "(The chartered organization head or chartered organization representative must approve all leader applications before submitting them to the local council.)" and later ... "(The committee chairman must sign all leadership applications before submitting them tot he chartered organization for approval.)"

Thanks Short.... ...but my question still beckons...to the CO's realize that *they* are responsible for ensuring sufficient adult leadership is provided for each activity?

So there is a change here to the CO's! There is a big difference from the CO "approving" the adult leaders and ensuring that there is sufficient adult leadership on outings. This means that BSA is intending to shift liability to the CO's. When will the CO's be informed of their increased liability? ===== Does the BSA indemnify the Committee Chair when they sign the Tour Plan's?(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

--- Fixed grammar --- I'm not a fan of unsupervised Patrol Outings anyway...but this struck me as odd.... "The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities. " Huh? Really? Was this there before? From what I can tell, there are CO's out there that barely have any involvement at all in the Troop, and they are supposed to ensure supervision? Sounds like BSA trying to shift liability from themselves to the CO's.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7393323/Lord-Baden-Powell-invited-to-meet-Hitler-MI5-files-show.html

Well...my view would be: Youth Led : Boys plan. Youth Run : Boys plan... AND handle all logistics, financing, execution, bookkeeping (including all corresponding with District.

"BUT what if the Scouts are not happy?" That's another issue then...r-hawk did not say that the Scouts were discontent, nor even that they appeared to be discontent. However, if the Scouts were not happy, they would likely quit. "What if the scout's do not know that they are suppose to be in charge, not their parents?" Well that the $50 question...if r-hawk promotes the changes *he* wants, then the Troop might implode...then what was accomplished? In this case, what's better... 1) Changing the troop to what the SM and ASM want's to run, losing the Scouts then you tick off the parents? 2) Leaving the troop as it is, having the Scouts get what this Troop as to offer the way it is. If the SM and ASM want to transform the Troop, then they have to get the parents to buy-in first. I'd recommend a meeting with the Parents (sans Scouts) to propose a plan to change the Troop. If it's proposed to the Scouts first, then the parents will take it as an pitting the boys against the parents...and the Troop will suffer. As I said earlier...the parents control participation...not the boys.

So, had Ritalin existed in 1930, we might have averted 73 million dead. I remember the ADD/ADHD kids in school... ... the ADD's were all labeled mentally retarded and put in special ed ... while the ADHD's were the ones going out into the hallway 2-3 times a week getting "boarded". Both were short changed.

I guess I'll ask a couple of stupid questions...kinda what I do best...right Beav? 1) Are the boys satisfied with how the Troop is run? 2) Are the parents satisfied with how the Troop is run? If the answer to 1 and 2 are both "yes"... then I would expect you to have a problem trying to change it.... I'd expect your and the SM's ouster, or mass defections of the troop. Does this Troop following the "Scouting Bible"? Sounds like not....but if it works for them. Regardless of what you might like to think...parents ultimately decide a Scouts participation .... not the Scout.

"I really hate to let this discussion fade into the sunset without some additional info from E61 as to why the winter camping trip was canceled." Sorry for the delay ... new job has me hopping and my spare time is buried in coaching Baseball this time of year... The trip was postponed until this week...and just postponed again till next week...for a variety of reasons. 1) Severe weather (expecting 8-16" of new snow and rain/snow mix on an existing base) will close most or all routes to/from the campsite...this includes both Interstate and State Routes. Blowing and drifting to near-whiteout conditions. Routes will be closed even to 4WD or chained vehicles. It is 130 miles to the campsite through numerous elevation changes. 2) Campsite is windward to a significant mountain range which would increase snowfall by 4-8". 3) A large ratio of 1st year Scouts. 16 of 24 I think...most of remainder are 2nd year and a minimal adult crew (SM and 3-4 ASM's). Personally, I wouldn't attempt to drive through that for business, so I certainly would consider it for a leisure activity. === Added === I noticed a comment about camping in -40 degrees.... I've been in -27 with -80 windchill (Ohio Blizzard of '78)... not something I'd ever consider intentionally camping in. One of the big reasons I live in Arizona now. (This message has been edited by Engineer61)

It can be an issue, especially in the financial times we are in. It's a big problem for me now...my new job pays less than 1/2 my previous job. The bigger problem is the recurring costs to replace outgrown uniforms, broken equipment, additional equipment for 4 season camping...supplies, etc. But it not just on the Scouting side either....my other son is in Band and Baseball...I'm hoping he doesn't break his bat this year.... There is a possibility that it will have to be cut back...

'67 BelAir - 283 cu in, 2 BBL with the 2 Speed Torque Flight automatic transmission. 1st gear would take you to 55 MPH, after that is was all 2nd gear.

Scout's winter camp was canceled. Because of the weather being too extreme. Kudos to him for realizing the conditions that were developing and limitations of group being incompatible. I might get some sleep now, the next time Scout goes out.

"Boundaries are dictated mostly by adult fear, but also a little by adult egos. " Hmmm....I would have hoped that ... Boundaries are dictated by practical sensibility provided by the adults weighed against the maturity of the boys. A young troop with few older boys (like ours) might want to plan a white water rafting trip, even though none of them are strong enough swimmers to safely engage in such an event. In other words, as the maturity of a troop rises or falls, the level of boundaries must work in the opposite direction.

"You won't get any sleep because your son is going to be cold and wet? " Oh, it's much more than that.

Read? The only thing the tag said was "do not fold to store". Size of bag vs. common sense.

So, I get home from work...Scout is out in the backyard, trying to get his tent packed up...getting ready for Winter Camp this weekend...he'll get both cold and wet according to the forecast...meaning I won't get any sleep. I guess he's on this 3rd attempt....just can't get it small enough to get in the bag. So, I drop my stuff, we pull everything apart...see what's there. He's added a new waterproof underlayer...but is should all still fit. I remind him that he's not supposed to fold and roll the tent (according to the mfg.) but he's not buying into that... I figure, ok ... you're the one getting wet...not me....you can buy the next tent when you figure that out. So we layout the orig. tarp. then the new tarp, then the tent then the fly...fold it down so the orig tarp acts like and gum wrapper, pole bag at the end...roll it tight... slides right in with room for the stakes. Then I hear, "You were never a Scout...how did you know how to do that?" I went in and ate dinner. LOL