Engineer61

"If parents know the leaders are knowledgeable, experienced and well trained in the outdoors..." That's probably the biggest factor for most of the "outside" parents...those not in the inner circle of the troop. I would suppose that the less the parents know of and about the adult leaders, the less inclined they are to send off their son in conditions that they themselves wouldn't consider camping in. In our troop at least, the winter camps were canceled because the access to the area was severely limited, or closed....so I guess that can be a good parameter to use..."Can I get there and back safely?"

I'll freely admit that my OP was more of a vent...mixed in with a thread of hope that someone had a magic bullet. Mom and I are to the point where we might consider re-writing the Scout Law to display to him his actual behavior...there were a number of words and combination of words that came to mind... Trying to maintain humor...it's baseball season after all...

I've always supposed that the Scout Law was intended to apply as much outside the confines Scouting as it does inside them. Perhaps a bad assumption in my case. Scout's behavior is taking a turn to the dark side...to the point where I'm almost ready to stand up ask, "What part of the Scout Law that you recite every week do you not comprehend?" Even has the 15 year-old son rolling his eyes... How do you get them to apply it? I mean, that is the point of having the Law, right?

I too was never a Scout, so I know some your concerns. I also emphasize the importance of visiting multiple troops. Of the five that my wife and Scout visited, four were somewhere between "The iPod Appreciation Society" with everyone at the meeting with iPod's attached and grey hooded sweatshirts on...to an extended CS Den with no Scout present over the age of 14. The remaining troop was the one they chose. No decision on which troop to select should be considered complete without talking to the SM and ASM's one-on-one. This will give you the most complete information on how the troop operates both inside and outside. Watch the Troop meeting carefully...organized chaos is a good term for it...and usually the standard...in some troops it is less organized and more chaotic...personally, I can't tolerate them... Since you have indicated that your son is "timid", be on the lookout for aggressive behavior, possibly hard to identify in meetings, but be observant. Bullies are generally not expelled from the troop. Good luck.

Doe SODOTO work? (pron. So - do - two) See One Do One Teach One

Ironically, the organizational structures that you all have described sounds like those in a number of large European-style high-tech companies that I have worked for over the years. In an attempt to keep little kingdoms intact, a cloud of bureaucracies have formed, each apparently thinking that they own something, owe nothing to any of the other bureaus but should be paid for their perceived services by the other bureaus. Income, from what ever source, enters through multiple points in the structure, which gives the owner of the entry point the perception that he is the contact point for "the customer". And is somehow distributed. I can imagine that the frustration level in each of the bureaus ebbs and flows quite a bit. Personally, I think the boys are the customers, because they are the end recipient of the services that BSA provides. But...what do I know...lol

Lbob... Oh it's definitely #1. I talk to my wife about my concerns, some of which she shares, but she seems to drink the Kool-aid better than I. You're other comment about parents is a given. That's not unique to Scouting... that's in in any activity in which volunteer (or even professional) staff involve kids. Seems kind of an obvious scenario. I would volunteer if I thought I had something to contribute ... but I really don't think I do. As far as learning...well I'm working on it...probably not fast enough. Life load is a little heavy... Thanks for the input though.

Don't worry Qwazse, I'm not recruit-able! Lbob... Yes there are several troops in the area, according to my wife, this was the best of the bunch. My wife's Ex does "require" he be in Scouts, and that he Eagles, but he lives 2000 miles away, so he has no real knowledge of the troop.

Lisabob made a comment that I thought it important to address... "But let's look carefully at this situation: he's in a canoe with an adult." Uhh, no, there was no adult in the canoe, according to my step-son, just him an another boy. Was there supposed to have been? ====== Lisabob also suggested... "If you do not agree with the program, and/or if you do not trust the leadership of the program then either get involved, get trained, and become leadership yourself, or remove the boy." For me to get involved would be hypocritical for several reasons and since I have zero Scouting experience, I doubt I would be taken seriously anyway. Further, since I really have no interest in the outdoor activities that are the core of Scouting, it would be a miserable adventure. (I am content to drive to the Grand Canyon and look at it...I have no need to hike it.) I cannot remove my step-son...as I have said many times, it is not my decision, I just get to worry about it. ====== Fortunately, the school year is about over, step-son will leave Scouting for the summer when he goes back to visit his Dad, so I won't have to worry much about it. Kinda ironic really, his Grandfather, Father and two Uncle's and Cousin are all Eagles but after they Eagle'd, they did nothing else. They all want step-son to Eagle because is looks good on paper.

1) Did he pass the swimmer's test prior to canoeing? If no then I believe he has, however, I have witnessed his swimming ability in my own pool for several years, and it is minimal at best...and certainly not demonstrated under a crisis situation. If he could tread water for 3 minutes in a swimsuit only, I'd be amazed. 1b) Was he in a canoe with a certified lifeguard? I have no idea, the credentials of the adults are all unknown to me, doubt if my wife does either. As for PFD's. They are a must have and a so what at the same time. PFD's are known to fail. I don't know what type they were, etc. He apparently did not have a full change of clothes, so he returned to town in wet jeans...fortunately he had left his coat the vehicle, so that was dry. In the end, the Scouting mantra considers me wrong. Eh, I guess that just means I don't sleep on those weekends he's on outings....which has been the case for a couple years now. Sucks to be me. (This message has been edited by Engineer61)

Twocub...I think you missed the relationships. Scout is step-son my current wife's son. My son is not involved in Scouting, however, my Ex has been known to try 1+1=fish (as my daughter puts it). And tr to equate occurrences with my step-son as somehow an example as to how I might be endangering my son. Twisted...I agree...but that's how the legal system can be played.

I grew up in rural central Ohio, during 60's and 70's. Outside of a Mom coming in to my classroom on time to promote Cub Scouts when I was in grade school, I really never saw any aspect of Scouting in any public arena.

"Speaking as a divorced parent, that's a load of hogwash" Congratulations, you do not have my Ex. However, I personally have been pulled in to Court for just this kind of nonsense. "So, you wouldn't have had an issue if they hadn't said they would stay on the perimeter?" No, he would not have gone, that was my wife's position as well. We understand our son's limitations when it come to swimming. PFD's are not a guarantee. "Do you think he would have spent the whole weekend shivering away in sodden clothing? Is that what you are worried about? " No, I was worried that he might drown.

Hi BP, I think the level of secrecy or "closed-ness" of BSA has probably varied over time and geography. Probably still does. When I was a kid, BSA was very closed and closed-mouth...the reason being that in my town they were closely affiliated with local secret organization(s). Having moved away many years ago, I don't know if that affiliation still exists. I don't ever recall seeing a Scout (Cub or BSA) in uniform in public in my hometown, except maybe in a parade on the Independence Day. Cub Scouts did not serve at school functions, nor did they meet at school. If I knew any Scouts, I didn't know that I knew them...that's pretty secret in my book. I think the problem that some people have is that if they "know" that an organization (not just BSA) has a "secret" sub-group that they have heard about, they wonder what other "secret" sub-groups they don't know about. It's a conspiracy mentality, granted, but that is the way of the world these days....mainly because we've had so many. According to an ABC poll I found, 72% of people 18-64 believe the Kennedy assassination was a conspiracy.

Modern civilization has been and still is loaded with secret organizations and sub-societies...most become public intentionally or unintentionally. Some beneficial, some benign, some contemptible. Freemason's and over a dozen split-off's from the Freemasons. Most college fraternities and sororities. KKK, Hitlerjugend Various semi-public political orders which keep the conspiracy theorists going like the UN, NWO, IMF, WHO. Is BSA a secret organization? I think it was at one time, but I don't think so now. It is definitely a closed club, or at least it appears that they desire that, in some sub-organizations (like OA) more than others.

maddog - why do parents have to feel that they have to be evolved in every aspect of the sons scouting? After the Oregon Case, you really have to ask?

Eng, how much do past legal fights have to do with your reticence? And would you feel the same if the organization wasn't Scouts but school, sports league, or church sponsored? First, I think you meant resistance not reticence (modesty)...I had to look up that one...lol. I'm certain that my personal situation skews my tolerance level. Legal battles are quite expensive. Perhaps the SM's should consider that, given the number of divorce parents involved these days. It is not uncommon for divorced parents to not agree on extracurricular activities, so issues and events in extracurricular can easily be used against a parent. "Johnny broke his leg when he jumped into the lake on the Scouting campout that *you* signed him up for." And yes, I take exception when any organization that I or my kids are involved in does not follow the rules and plans they themselves set down. I've fought some of those wars with school's already.

To OldGreyEagle: Do you know what the one big difference is between your headlines and what the OP presented? The reports are: 1) Public 2) Being investigated by third parties. Not exactly what happens in the BSA.

There are far more than three sides to most stories... I generally take everyone at their word, until they prove otherwise. Given the detail that the OP provided, widow, was told that the other boy and family was "good", no mention of special conditions, OCD/ADD/ADHD/etc. I, incidentally, have never allowed my boy's ADD/ADHD to be an excuse for anything. That would be irresponsible. So, I'm inclined to believe the OP...but that's just me. She didn't come in with a "BSA is bad, bye" post. Y'alls mileage may vary.

A question for Twocubdad...I'm curious... Exactly what part of getting beaten up by a "much older" kid has the possibility of teaching this boy self-reliance? Exactly what part of getting beaten up by a "much older" kid has the possibility of teaching this boy to how people are to work together?

I was asked... "On a serious note, if two of your players had a fight during practice or a game, would you not get everyone involved together to sort it out? Would you also recommend that the offended party look to another activity?" No. I don't need "everyone" to sort things out and decide what to do. *I*, not some committee, would take the principals and the direct witnesses, find out what happened and kick the attacker off the team. Then I would ensure that the player was banned from the league. Then I would inform the victim and his parents what was done and offer to refund their fee, should they decide not to continue. What should have happened in OP's case was that the SM (and no one else) would have approached the parent immediately , told her what happened and informed her that the attacker was booted out and will not be permitted to return. When the stronger picks on the weaker just to prove his own might, it's the ultimate act of cowardice. What struck me as odd was the almost immediate defense of the attacker (and family). This tells me that this is not the first time that this kid has attacked. That would have been another red-light.

First, to singlemom, and more importantly to her son, I'm sorry for your experience. Legitimately, your son would have to be very motivated to go back to any Scout troop. And for you to overcome your angst would be another big hurdle. Yes, there is certainly situations where single parents are looked down on...even today. When I was a single Dad, going to school functions to help out was always an interesting mix by both married Mom's and married Dad's. The Mom's wanted to know what evil shyster I hired to take my kids away from their Mother, and the Dad's wondered if I was after their wives. To the Forum...we've seen variations of this before on the board. Fight breaks out, the attacker is "real sorry" and nothing much more is done. There is no possible way that a responsible parent (single or not) could in good conscious allowed their son to participate in an organization which they don't feel that the boy is protected in. That is amplified in Scouting because of the amount of time that the boys spend on outings at one time. While going to District or the CO might yield some positive results, the reality is that it probably would not. Would District or the CO expel the attacker, when the SM would not? I think singlemom's only solution is to move on to some other activity for her son...I wish her luck with that.

Yep, I'd pull him if it were up to me...as I already said, I just get to pay for it ... For the other AZ poster, Roosevelt, high 50 ... water temp 40. Whatever a "drybag" is, they didn't have them. Nor wetsuits. They had to paddle back wet.

I think Scout has three now. I didn't buy them, so I don't know the ratings, I just know that I have to boot them around in my garage from time to time.

My personal favorite: (26 August 2006, Leicester, England) Darren's death was a mystery. The 33-year-old was found slumped in the hallway of his house, bleeding from stab wounds to his chest. Police initially assumed that an assailant had attacked him, but they could find no supporting evidence. A year later, the inquest revealed why Darren can stake his claim to a place among the winners of the Darwin Award. Darren had called a friend, but minutes after he hung up, rang back to ask for an ambulance. The front door was ajar, and Darren was found lying near a bloodstained lock-knife he had purchased whilst on holiday in Spain. Forensics investigators saw no indication of a struggle, and the coroner reported that the stab wounds seemed to be self-inflicted. However, Darren had shown no suicidal tendencies. His wife, who was on holiday at the time of the incident, cleared up the mystery, and revealed why our subject will go down in history as a Darwin Award winner. As she was leaving for the holiday, she remembered Darren wondering whether his new jacket was 'stab-proof'. That's right. Darren decided to find out if his jacket could withstand a knife attack. Did he choose to test his jacket while it was draped over the back of a chair? No, our man thought that the best approach would be to wear the garment and stab himself. Sadly, his choice of armor proved less resistant to a sharp blade than he had hoped. The coroner reached a verdict of accidental death by 'misadventure'.