Engineer61

"It's a GUIDEBOOK." "Yeh don't enforce a guidebook." Huh? Really? What about Gays and Atheists... that seems to get pretty well enforced. It's called selective enforcement...and is most predominately practiced to defend the good ole boys and crony clubs. In addition to the local "professional" Scouts, I'd report it to the COR and the local authorities, since we cannot depend on the District to do anything about it...

Last time I tried to cross over to Canada with my kids, the US side warned me that if the kids did not have passports, they could not get back in. That was post 9-11. If both parents are not there, you have to have permission forms signed from the other parent as well...or a death certificate.

A reply: "1. Don't shy away from dumping this on Mom." Not possible, her knees are in worse shape than mine...too many youth years spent with high impact aerobics, power lifting and Stair-master. "2. Involve his patrol." Hopefully. "3. Take the merit badge with a buddy." I don't know that he's even consulted the MBC as yet.

So, I floated my idea to my Scout to use the walk home from school as a conditioning tool ... the conversation ran like this... Me: "Ya know, I think I came up with a good conditioning plan for your Hiking MB..." Him: "Yeah, what?" Me: "Well, since the weather is good, you could start by walking home from school on the days you don't have band." Him: "You're kidding, right." Me: "Why no ... I'm not. It's a little over a mile, flat, paved, and your book bag is a moderate load by comparison to what you'll have to haul for a 10 or 20 mile hike." Him: "Well it might be a good idea, but there's no way I'm going to do that." Me: "Ok...well, you'll have to come up with some way of getting in shape then."

"Oops, you may not get much rain...where are you?" Yeah...big oops! Central Arizona...not known for rainy days....lol

From Tampa: How much does he weigh? A bit over 100# I'd guess. Is the terrain easy? Depends on where...can be open desert or mountains. There are no places to fill up? No. Supposedly, you are no longer permitted to cache water (water drops) on Federal or State lands here in AZ (not sure why) ... I haven't seen the edict myself, but wife is in the know....this means he has to lug it all. From OGE: "The worst that can happen is you both will improve physical conditioning" Uh...that would be the best...a 10 miler is beyond my functional limits...conditioning can't fix a bad meniscus. And asthma is very unpredictable. ==== Ya know....maybe he could start by walking home from school...that's about 1.5 miles according to Google Earth....on the days he doesn't have band...he'd have only his book bag...about 15#... At least with that idea, we'd immediately see his commitment level.

Let's see ... Condition : Total non-athlete. Does not participate in a single sport outside of P.E. class...not even at Scout functions. So finding conditioning methods is problematic. With 10-15% humidity, and 70-80 degree temps how much water should he carry for 10 mi? 20 mi? I agree with the Swimming and Cycling issues...but he's not going to get on a bicycle...to phobic about injury....as been from day one from when I met him...kinda ironic, since his Dad was a major outdoor kind of guy...long distance cyclist...never taught him to ride a bike. He's actually water phobic as well...won't go under water or jump into the pool. Had to show him the breast and back strokes and force him to learn it just to make him water safe...otherwise I'd have banned him from my pool long ago. As for advice for him...I have none... I never hiked... never had the need.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

"Name something, and it can be sued as a "weapon." Correct, but most of the items you describe are not "intended" to be weapons, are they? In my state, there's no designation on knives. All are considered "deadly weapons".

"Advancement is a method, not a goal and the journey shouldn't be about Eagle". I double-dog dare ya to try that on my wife, the grandpa or the SM/ASM's in my son's troop. 3-1 that you'd get flogged. LOL

So, given the three choices, Swimming-Hiking-Cycling, my Scout has chosen Hiking ... out of necessity ... he is a barely competent swimmer and refuses to learn how to ride (why I still have a bike in the garage beats me!) So, he has to get in shape for five 10-mile hikes and a 20-mile hike. So, some opinions on how much and what kind of conditioning are needed. I figure he needs about twice the leg muscle that he currently has. Marching Band next summer and fall will certainly start the process....will help with the core muscles as well. Assuming he has to haul all his calories and H2O, I figure he has to be able to haul about 20# in his pack. Timing will be everything...you want to do these hikes in the winter in the desert southwest.

"Perhaps gifts knives, guns and firemaking kits ... should best come from the parents." I would say, " ... should ONLY come from the parents." But more so with the weapons ... I would be pretty ticked if anyone gave my kid a weapon without my prior knowledge and approval.

I guess it depends on if the Adult has a fundamental knowledge of things that he will have to be able to do as an Adult leader... ... does he know how to camp safely? ... does he have some knowledge of water safety/can he swim? ... does he have a basic knowledge of first aid? ... is he in good enough health to handle all the physical aspects? The Scouting specific stuff can be learned...I suppose, but the common sense stuff relate to the outdoor aspect should already be there. I think it important for potential adult leaders to know precisely what there knowledge base and limitations are and to underestimate (not overestimate) his own capabilities. I would never consider it...I don't have the outdoor knowledge to be responsible for 10-12 kids, I don't have the physical capabilities either.

If I recall, the only thing I remember my Scout talking about was the "hokey Indians". It take a while to make the dang arrow.

"I think Short's points about really making an effort to connect with your local Native American tribes is important." Question : How do you "connect" with your local tribe if there are none in your area? There are no federally recognized tribes in Ohio...and only two organized tribes.

"But I trust it enough to get on an airplane." My father didn't ... and he built airplanes for a living ... he would fly on business if required...with a huge insurance policy in place. But he and my mother never once flew for leisure. BTW...technically speaking an airplane is not science, but and application of science...there is a difference. Science is not "invented" it is a documentary of what has been observed based on the implementation of theories of how things work using a predetermined method, "Scientific Method". These result of these activities become Scientific Fact, based on the analysis of the observed results. Theories that cannot be examined in this way remain theories...not fact. Indeed new scientific fact is derived either as and extension or rebuttal of prior scientific fact. We (Humanity) believe that God exists, primarily because our conscious minds needs Him, or some other deity to exist to explain what we cannot yet comprehend. As Hawkings realized, "One can imagine that God created the universe at literally any time in the past. On the other hand, if the universe is expanding, there may be physical reasons why there had to be a beginning. One could imagine that God created the universe at the instant of the big bang, or even afterwards in just such a way as to make it look as though there had been a big bang, but it would be meaningless to suppose that it was created before the big bang. An expanding universe does not preclude a creator, but it does place limits on when he might have carried out his job!" Many books have been written about God ... most by those engaged in an effort to control the masses using the fear of God's vengeance. Even early science was controlled and restricted by the Church to prevent them from losing control of the masses through scientific revelation. (Galileo, DaVinci and many others.) And modern science suffers from the manipulation of politicians and powerful economic influences.

I saw this pop up a couple of places ... I don't know what "God's Law" is ... ... for I am not God. ... because the Bible was written by men ... men who are not God ... and then rewritten several times by or for other men ... like King James ... who are not God ... ... then those interpretations we reinterpreted by the likes of Smith, Young, Swaggert, Bakker, Wright, Schuller, Humbard, Jones, Jeffs ... who are not God ... ... and occasionally by a Luther or King ... who are not God ...

Hmmm....if the boys were picking it...it would probably follow some video game characterization. For the World of Warcraft crowd... Brotherhood of the Orc/Ranger/Elf/Dwarf .... (I do like the recent TV ad with Chuck Norris)

Oooo.... I LIKE THAT ONE... So it's not "Social Conservative" .... Social Socialist ... Just curious....what would a Social Fascist be?

"But I wonder what you mean about the OA "giving back" to the troops?" Lemme see if I can conjure up a couple of examples.... Say a Troop wants to pull of a big Community Service project ... clean up a park or something....something that will take far more bodies than the Troop has...maybe OA could pick up the slack. So, say an Eagle project needs "bigger" hands that the younger Scouts can't pull off ... OA to the rescue? I watched one Eagle project flounder last year because the 12-14 year olds couldn't move railroad ties. Granted this might unfeasible if the OA (Lodge?) is small...

Kinda reminds me of the "professor" in Saudi Arabia who has stated that allowing women to drive in Saudi Arabia would increase the number of prostitutes, increase the divorce rate and cause a decline in the number of virgin women. Total crap.

Hmmmm...ok so I'm strictly an outsider looking in ... but.... I wonder if some of the resistance to OA from the Troop side is the additional time commitment to be involved in OA. Given the Troop schedule (meetings/trips/Eagle Projects/CS project) and the school load, I wonder if there are some Troop leaders crying "Uncle" and consider OA to be a drain on the activity of the Troop. Maybe if the OA pursued "giving back" some effort to the Troops that might make a difference. 2 cents +/- the exchange rate.

I believe if you look at the Oregon case, is was centered around LDS troops, which is why the LDS was named as a plaintiff.

"Part of the SM's job is to build up trust with the parents." I think that's the first time I've ever seen that statement posted ... I agree wholeheartedly. "I as a parent want to know two things about the program" "1. Is it safe?" I been repeatedly told not to worry about that. It's been around for 100 years you know. "2. What will my son gain from it all? Eagle? Character? What?" Ooooo...sarcasm light went off...better stop here. LOL

"I really don't see how it's a big deal. It's not like the decades-old Catholic church or Los Angeles BSA Council who kept confidential records and didn't report it to the police or anyone -- Scouts Canada reported it properly, so I really don't see what the big deal is. " Uh....these files have been accumulating in BSA HQ since the 50's and 60's. I just got a copy of the book "On My Honor". These problems in Scouting date back to on of Baden Powell's friends ... As long as there's Scouting, there's going to be pedophiles in Scouting. Especially in the LDS troops. I have some hope that the sexual abuse education programs going on in the schools will educate the kids in Scouting enough to start blowing the whistle. Does Scouting give any educational guidance in abuse issues to either the Scouts or the Parents?

When I was a kid, if you weren't hunting, you stayed home during hunting season. Too many hunters and too many beers out there. My brothers duck decoys got buck'ed every year. Digging a crosspoint arrow outta your backside was considered something to avoid.